I have a friend who has been considering going to PT school for a few years now. He’s about my age, well beyond undergrad where he earned an engineering degree, but moved out of that field a while ago. He’s an entrepreneurial type and would definitely be on the path to private practice if he chooses to become a PT.
He wrote me an email with a question regarding whether or not becoming a PT is economically “worth it” these days, and I realized that my answer would not only make for a good blog post, but that it would be so much more beneficial to him if I could get some of you to weigh in with your thoughts. As you’ll see in the comments below, this is quite a passionate topic with a variety of opinion on the subject.
Questioning the Value of a career in Physical Therapy
Here was his email:
“I’ve been trying to figure out, realistically, how much a PT could collect from insurance for 1 PT visit on avg. I found a great article of PT benchmarking that says from govt insurance, a PT should be able to collect $90 for each visit of 3.4 work procedures averaging 11 visits per PT per day. However, it only mentioned that private insurance will vary. I’m looking for a conservative #. I know it will vary, but maybe a number that the majority of a visit could credit.
It’s tough to find any concrete data on this. $90 per visit at 11 visits a day, seems like a strong amount to me for an individual private practice.
Still just trying to economically justify (as if I were buying a business) trading 3 yrs of income and $120k of debt to do something for myself that I would enjoy and look forward to every day.”
Assessing the value of a physical Therapy degree vs the cost or debt it requires
And here was my response:
The per/visit reimbursement for any given patient really varies based on what insurance companies you’re in network with. Some insurances only pay $50/visit which isn’t enough for most practices to cover their own costs to treat that patient. Some pay way over $100 for the average visit. (Note to readers: if you’re well versed in reimbursement averages, please share your knowledge in the comments below)
I’m glad that you want to analyze these numbers up front, but things are likely to change quite a bit between now and when you’ve graduated and have enough in-field experience to start your own practice. You’ll likely have to work in a practice for a few years before opening your own. Though the demand for PTs will grow, the amount that employers can pay them may not grow as quickly. Reimbursements are getting worse over time even though costs are going up like with any other business. So I wouldn’t expect to be setting the world on fire as a new grad when it comes to your salary the first few years out.
With all that said, you’d be making a big mistake to only look at the numbers as you make this decision. In the end, Physical Therapy is a wonderfully rewarding profession. I know you already made note that you see it as something you’d “enjoy and look forward to every day,” but I really can’t overstate the importance of that… I place an enormous value on being able to use my hands and mind to help people live in less pain; and I can’t imagine sitting at a computer/phone all day. So a really important question you need to answer for yourself is: “Am I likely to see significant value simply in the work of a Physical Therapist? Will I still really enjoy doing this type of work even if I’m not making $xxx,xxx?” Only you can answer that question.
There are plenty of Physical Therapists I’ve met through the years who have a “job” that I would find as unappealing as the above-mentioned desk job. And some of these PTs are Practice Owners! Never-ending paperwork and insurance/Medicare hassles, the need to see multiple patients per hour and often more than one patient at a time, etc. It doesn’t have to be this way. But, if you don’t actively avoid this scenario, it’s an easy one to end up in as a PT (employee or practice owner alike).
You have to actively look for and/or create a business/clinic scenario that supports and encourages your ability to help people, as opposed to your ability to see tons of patients each day and eke another percent of profit margin wherever possible (and in whatever way is necessary regardless of its affect on patient care). Creating a cash-based practice is the way I ensured that for myself, but it’s not as quickly scalable a business model as traditional insurance-based clinics. So my earning potential in this business model probably isn’t as high as someone who can go open 10 successful insurance-based clinics. With that said, I also place huge value on avoiding many of the hassles a multi-clinic insurance-based practice owner has. To me, it’s totally worth the trade off; but for others, it may not be.
So I’m a little torn in my answer to this because I know that earning potential and finances are very important, and I’m personally not sure if the average salary of a PT will outpace inflation in the future. On the private practice side of things, staying profitable will always be possible but will likely become harder in the future as well. However, if you’re in it because you love the work you’re doing, and you use some foresight and business savvy, you can buck the trend and make sure that the amount you’re earning makes you happy as well.
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And now I’m passing the mic to my colleagues…. please give my friend your answer to his question in the comments section below.
I really want this to be a dialogue among my colleagues, my friends and prospective future PTs, and anyone else considering PT.
Interested in Becoming a physical Therapist without all the Headaches mentioned above?
I and a growing number of physical therapists and other practitioners around the world are proving that it’s possible! You can create a private practice where and your staff treat patients the way you know they should be treated, and not have to argue with insurance companies and accept lower and lower payments for your service over time.
It’s never too early to start learning the business side of this career, because you certainly won’t learn much about that in PT school.
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There are hundreds of happy, successful cash-practice practice owners—including physical therapists, physicians, speech therapists, occupational therapists, chiropractors, mental health professionals and more—who started their journey on this webpage and consumed the content of this website as well as my podcast and trainings on their path to creating the private practice of their dreams.
This is an interesting topic, along with being a PT I am a high school rowing coach, and I often have kids who are intrigued by the way I work with them and others to fix their issues. I have a large number as to follow me at work for a day and then apply to PT school, and this is something their parents often ask me about.
Too start with the negative one problem I see is the increasing cost of school, combined with the decreasing reimbursement for PT. So someone goes to PT school for 6 years, or maybe even 7, and they come out with an idea of what they should be paid, the problem is that idea doesn’t always match with what their employer is being paid for their service. I know in my local area new PT’s getting out of school are asking/being told by their school they should expect about the same salary I was getting after working for 3 years. The problem with this is that since I have started working reimbursement rates have gone down, so from a strict math/business standpoint they should either make less or see more people.
Another issue I see with the current system is that geographically PT is reimbursed . If you are an attorney the more experience you have the more it will cost someone for you to work with them. As a PT a new grad will bring in the same per tx as someone with 10 years of experience and a board certification. Prior to starting my own clinic I worked in a standard insurance based out-patient clinic and I had a full schedule about 90% of the time, mostly with people I was bringing in (hence why I started my own clinic), at the end of year when I asked for a raise I was told it simply couldn’t happen, and I believed them. I couldn’t see more people, and I couldn’t bill more per tx, so how could they pay me more.
Now with that all being said, I think physical therapy is a great profession with tremendous value to offer, and because of that is a great career choice, but you need to be aware of the issues going in so you know how to approach them. For me the solution was to go with the cash-pay model. I am in an area with a lot of private clinics and a lot of large POPS groups, and I decided if I wanted to compete I had to be better, not the same. I also realized that I couldn’t rely 100% on my treatments as a revenue source so I sell orthotics, KTTape, foam rollers, physio balls, and anything else I might recommend my patients using at home. For years I would recommend something to a patient, ask for their email and email them an amazon link for the product. Now they leave with it, and this helps me put more focus on them and their treatment then how I’m going to see 80 patients next week.
In short I say go for it, it is a very rewarding profession, I agree with Jarod, you can’t put a dollar amount on enjoying going to work each day. Sorry for the long windedness, I hope that helps.
I am a PT since 1975. 41 years. When I first became a PT there was much autonomy. As the years past manage care emerged due to the greed of MD’s. You ever see a poor MD? I have not. They all want big money. Live in a mansion, drive fancy cars, take 6 weeks vacation a year. That takes money. Seeing a PT needs a doctor referral the MD’s figured out that if they opened their own PT clinic they could lasso a PT, give them $20.00 an hour and pocket the rest. And, boy, did they ever do that! Independent PT’s here around Chicago are as rare as the dodo bird. I am retired now and only work for fun. I see lots of new grads way deep in student debt and weep for them. PT is a dying pseudo profession that is controlled by everyone other than PT’s. We do all the work, but share little in the financial rewards. I am so thankful that I had the vision to save meticulouslly for retirement and get the hell out of PT. I would not encourage any young person to pursue a life as a PT. Too many whiny non-compliant cheap patients. They used to give me a headache every working day. Not no more!
Thanks for your input Leo.
I sure am glad I created a practice that doesn’t attract whiny non-compliant cheap patients! Sounds terrible!
Leo R. – I couldn’t agree with you more! After 19+ years as a PT in a variety of settings, I’ve seen the profession change so much. Physical therapists have lost so much power and independent decision making, the profession doesn’t look the same – and this in only 19 years! PTs getting out with medical school debt for a degree which now gives us less power than a massage therapist. The APTA pushed for the doctorate program (which I completed as part of a tDPT program but had my employer pay for most of it) thinking that it would give PTs more autonomy and respect with the MDs, but guess what? Nothing doing. The MDs would rather work with nursing and give any power to them because they know nursing won’t question any decisions or ask why. When I was working as director of the rehab department in a hospital, I even had an MD tell me that he only wanted his patients working with new grad physical therapists because the new grads didn’t question what he wanted them to do and would just do it. He said he especially like female new grads because they never questioned what they were asked to do. Physical therapy is quickly becoming a pseudo medical profession. And it all comes down to money. MDs know that their money is based on control – control of the patient, control of the process, control of the referral system. Less control equals less money. Do any of us in the profession really believe that MDs would do anything which might threaten their money supply? Even (said with sarcasm and the perspective of a jaded therapist) if it were for the benefit of a the patient? The medical profession has quickly become a business model based on the interests of the hospitals, then the insurance companies, and then the doctors. I don’t believe the patient even fits into the equation, and certainly PT plays a smaller and smaller role. Would I become a PT again? No way. No way.
I sadly feel the same. I am a PT with 7 years experience now. Struggling to financially to keep my head above water while making above average salary for our field. Still with 10 years of student loan debt that takes 25% of my take home salary. The whole MD practice is just shit or our field is shit. Example – I have completed a residency through the Ola Grimsbey Institute. In that we talked a lot about “optimum stimulus for repair”. Recently I had a hip FAI and labral surgery that I am paying out of pocket for because of greedy insurance companies which I pay $600/mo to have “coverage”. 4 x-rays, and MRI, 3 office visits that consisted of 10 minute talk and watching me walk. MD rakes it in, meanwhile telling me the worst thing I can do is perform the exercises I was taught in residency. Who do I believe? My field, which has failed me in practice?
The field has become a joke because of the PT provider as well. See below comment of mine. The “Doctorate” was never legitimate to begin with. There is not a real thesis (minus the research end of term paper we all did regardless of initials–that is not a real graduate level thesis with the exception of a few). There is no series of statistical analysis courses also noted in graduate level. There is not a completion of orals requiring the backing of thousands of pages of reading. There is not teaching lower level courses while in grad school. There is not a Bachelor’s in PT and then “Advanced PT school” in graduate school.
Add to that our notion of seeing multiple patients at a time and we are nothing but glorified athletic trainers. I’m not—I have and always will see patients one on one. I am well versed in Maitland due to continued practice. As are the one on one Mulligans and McKenzie providers. The rest are certified and then never touch it again as they complete notes while patients engage in exercise. You want a better life? Contract and then set your own rules. But the fact remains, and it is a fact: the physical therapy profession as a whole is no longer an honorable trade. Hate to say I told everyone so about two decades ago
I can fully understand your statements about the “doctorate” not having adequate research / full thesis requirements, but it’s completely unfair to make the blanket statement “the physical therapy profession as a whole is no longer an honorable trade” when there are many of us who DO write our own rules, provide stellar one-on-one care, and change lives for the better on a daily basis. If that’s how you feel, you should most definitely LEAVE THE PROFESSION because attitudes like that are the last thing it needs.
Incorrect and if you want to block me off then fine. Because it is what it is and largely has been that way because no one else has the sand to say it out loud. And sorry, no, I’m not leaving. I could mind you, and retire today. I’m staying exactly because of the attitude of non acknowledgement you just showed. Largely because this profession is made of do goodie weak knee’d females and beta males who act like them. Not all of them–but most of them. Like getting your feelings bruised when someone says what it is. I travel, Jarod ,so I have gotten to see it from coast to coast and have been doing it since you were probably in third grade. 80% of this profession is exactly like I describe which makes it yes “on the whole a dishonorable profession.” Sorry you’re too delicate to hear that. The do goodies who had no ethics told me the same thing you did when I was a 30 year old intern. “don’t bash the profession. Be positive.” It’s not positive.We are rampantly unethical as a group, as a whole and only when we have the intestinal fortitude to acknowledge that will we ever have a hope to regain ourselves.
Certainly not too delicate to hear any of your comments… some I agree with and some I don’t, and I appreciate you taking the time to voice your opinion here as long as you keep it civil (which I think you have for the most part … you’re pissed off and I understand why).
I would just say once more that even if your statement was true that 80% of the PT population is exactly as you describe (which I don’t believe is anywhere close to the case), that doesn’t justify statements including the entire profession “as a whole” … less than 100% is not “the whole.” I fully agree there are a ton of things and people in our profession that need changing, but don’t slam the entire profession and all of YOUR colleagues when there are an incredible number of very honorable colleagues doing great things for the profession and for their patients.
You don’t have to post this one.
Look you’re obviously doing it right as I said a year ago—and I hope you make a million. But are you even aware that your texas is one of the worst offending states for lack of care? Lack of ethics? How do you not know that? I worked there long ago and know many many travelers. This is what I do Jarod—I travel and have been 13/16 years across the coast. That 80 % is accurate in terms of lack of ethics–and some of the other comments are confirming that. For those of us who aren’t out one year post grad.
My colleagues? I don’t consider most PTs therapists let alone colleagues. And yes that’s too bad—it shouldn’t be that way. And maybe it wouldn’t be if people had stated each thing by its right name two decades ago.
Amen, Charles. Amen. Most PTs are too weak and frightened to speak the truth about the profession. They do what they’re told despite what they know and see. However, when the Board of Physical Therapy (BOPT) comes knocking, these PTs will quickly see how turning their heads the other way and doing what they’ve been told won’t protect them, and if you think for a moment that your company will support you, you’re sadly mistaken. For the company, it’s all about CYA (cover-your-ass). And if you think the BOPT is there to protect you, dream on. The BOPT in EVERY STATE operates under the agenda of “protecting the public.” In order for the public to “think it’s protected,” the BOPT will throw it’s own under the bus. Just because you’ve earned a PT after your name doesn’t give you any special protection in the eyes of the BOPT, the AMA, or the law. All are willing to prosecute you and will. And if any of you out there think for a moment that a favorite referring physician will stand up for at the risk of endangering his revenue stream, you are a fool. And if any of you think that a hospital will support you at the risk of bad PR or in any way that may cost it money, you are a fool. The hospital or other organization will “support you” only if supporting you keeps them from getting into trouble and having to pay out more money. It’s simply a “stop-gap” measure. Most PTs live in a dream world where simply “going through the motions” of therapy is good enough. Results matter little. They keep their heads down and practice hoping that they’ll never have to be heard or seen. A PT in private practice has more autonomy if he is brave enough to exercise it, but from what I’ve seen they operate from a place of fear as well because they don’t want to upset their favorite referring physicians by speaking up. Being a physical therapist is much like living with “golden chains” – the PT likes the salary and benefits, is afraid to lose them, and so does whatever he has to do protect them even if that means turning his head to the fraudulent practices in our profession.
Thanks Mike. Glad someone else sees it. I’ve now been swinging for 17 years trying to do it right. I have about four years left and will be out by then. And my advice remains to 19 year olds. Do not enter this now ridiculous profession of PT.
Seriously? Not sure what nurses you work with, but that is BS that nurses don’t question. If a physician orders something incorrectly and a nurse “doesn’t question”, that nurse could lose her/his license. I have the utmost respect for PTs. But maybe you don’t understand all that goes on between a nurse and physician because you aren’t educated as either.
As a current PT student, I feel there is some insight I can provide to this topic. First, let me say I am extremely thankful to be attending a well-respected state university (Northern Arizona University), with in-state tuition that is very affordable relative to the cost of a private education. All things considered, the walk away cost of my education will fall between 40-50K, a relative bargain for the quality of the education I am receiving especially in the scope of increasing costs of PT education.
Although I am not practicing in the clinic, I echo the concerns of Jarod and Justin in relation to decreasing reimbursement (due to Multiple Procedure Payment Reduction, and the like). Furthermore, constant changes to the healthcare system (initiation or repeal of certain aspects of the Affordable Care Act, a possible move to Accountable Care Models or a Pay-for-Preformance system) and what practice will look like when I graduate in 2014, have motivated to get involved with education outside of the classroom to best position myself for success upon graduation. My relationship with Jarod has come from that involved with the Private Practice Section of the APTA and my desire to eventually own and practice with the arena of cash pay.
That being said, my main reason for posting was to disseminate some information on the future of the DPT education. I would like to preface this by saying I am torn between my appreciation of the face-to-face interactions I have with faculty and classmates, and my view of Internet based social media and social interactions as being the future of marketing and patient education. With that in mind, I am not ignoring the fact that the world is changing at there will be those whose position themselves for success in the that changing environment. Earlier this year, John Childs, a name that carries significant weight in our profession, posted this message on the Evidence in Motion blog on his views of how education will change in this profession (link below). I would encourage you to take a look, as it proposes a way to address the changes unsustainable cost of PT education.
http://www.evidenceinmotion.com/about/blog/2013/01/the-future-of-online-education/
Finally, I would like to expand the potential differences in changes between didactic, classroom based education, and clinical rotations or internships (the above being more about didactic education). From discussions I’ve had with our clinical coordinator, it sounds like our program and others across the country are weighing the options and the practicality of petitioning for a move to a “transitional” or “temporary” license. Under this scenario, the student would be granted a license under supervision allowing for changes in billing, for example to Medicare beneficiaries, and increasing the incentive for clinical instructors to take students, as currently students may be viewed as financially burdensome to a clinic due to the limited ability to bill for treatment provided by a student. Upon completion of a final internship, the student would then be eligible for full licensure. Disclaimer: this is my understanding of the a working theory. I’m not sure were a national licensure exam fits in to the scenario (potentially prior to clinical internships) or how this would vary between programs as some schedule clinical experiences throughout the education, different from ours which is 90% in the 3rd year.
As I enter the final year of PT school, I in no way regret my decision to pursue this profession and degree.I look forward to beginning clinical internships, applying knowledge and making a difference in the lives of patients. Maybe I’ve been drink too much of the Carl DeRosa kool-aid, but I believe that those of us who stay educated and on top of the evolving healthcare field can be successful in changing times. Not to mention the exciting opportunity a cash-pay practice provides to establish value in quality care, different from what patients are experiencing elsewhere.
Hi Ryan,
I’m Jarod’s friend whom he speaks of. Thank you for sharing your experience and thoughts. I’m curious to know, how are you paying for you cost of living while in school?
This is the largest source of the $122k it would cost me. That is before interest of $70k after paying it off in 10 yrs.
Shane
Shane,
Your welcome, I hope I’ve been helpful…Per your question: I’m paying around $900 a month ($500 for rent + utilities). I’m sharing a house with two other classmates in the program, to help keep costs down. The way our program is structured – one year of class, summer internship, year of class, then final year of internships – my last year will be “rent free” as I have been able to organize internships in cities where I have family or friends who I can live with for 8 weeks. That should significantly reduce the cost for the last year.
I am paying for the cost of living with government loans while in school. Half of the loan amount goes to tuition while the other half goes to cost of living. I think, and I could be mistaken, I am able to do this because our tuition is relatively low. This year (my second) I have also benefited from a research assistant position that comes with a tuition waver. So I’ve taken out less loans, and just use them for cost of living. I don’t know who prevalent these are in other program, but our gives out 12-14 tuition wavers for second year students, helping keep the costs even lower.
Please let me know if you have any other questions.
Ryan
Hello Ryan, you posted your opinion regarding what you thought about PT being worth it back in 2013. How are you feeling about it now?
I love my job and am extremely happy with my choice of careers. One of my volunteers interviewed me the other day and the question came up, “why do you like your job?” I get to help people every day. In once sense it can become fatiguing but on the whole, it is very rewarding. When patients express gratitude for your helping them achieve their goals, you can’t help to experience a little glow. And I came from a desk job into PT so I know how it is on the other side. And so happy to be where I am.
That being said, as noted above, it can become fatiguing. I work in a private outpatient clinic where I see anywhere from 9-13 patients a day. Some of us have been wondering if we might see a raise soon. Our bosses suggestion was that we add on another patient to the day. The thought of that causes a stress response and makes me want to jump ship.
Which is what I am starting to do. I am slowly moving towards part time there and into my own cash-based practice. I am also a Yoga Therapist and started my side business by teaching yoga classes. Now, I am starting to see private clients in my off days. So, finding a niche side skill can also help to bring in revenue. I find that I can see 4 patients a day for the same amount of hourly pay that I see 13 patients for at my current job. And then I make a marginal amount for my yoga classes.
I would also suggest that prospective PT students look into a public education. This was the best advice I got from a PT when I was doing my volunteer hours prior to PT school. He told me to attend a public school because the amount we would get paid after would not be enough to cover the school loans of a private school. I did that and had my loans paid off the first year I started practicing.
Overall, I agree with Jarod and Justin…..it’s rewarding and worth it and sometimes doing what you love makes all the difference. Reading suggestion, “Escape From Cubicle Nation”….even if you’re not in a cubicle, it applies to the best of us trying to do what makes us ultimately happy in life.
I’m a second year DPT student and I want to also increase some revenue and do something I love by personal training and training athletes on the side once I start working. Do you do your yoga classes at a home studio or somewhere else? Also, when you see private clients do you see them at your home or somewhere else? What are some of the things needed (insurance, structural modifications, etc…) to run classes and see patients at your home (if so)?
Hi Nick,
So sorry I never responded to this (didn’t get any notice that there was a reply).
So, I think I did it backwards and started renting my own space first. It might have been wise to teach at a local studio first and then branch off. But I wanted to do things my way and not be based out of someone else’s business.
I rent a studio space, about 500sqft. It is designed like a yoga studio. And I also see private clients here. I have a treatment table that I keep folded off to the side. I have also gone to clients homes to in-house exercise/yoga. I carry a professional liability insurance as well as business-renters insurance on the place that I rent. The only thing I needed to do to my current studio was to put in new floors, otherwise it was ready to go. Would love to have it based out of a home, but I’m not in the running to purchase a home at this time. I am already looking for a different space, one that has a more sequestered treatment space and with a in-room sink.
If you are doing personal training, you may need less equipment and less of a designated place to practice. You could do it in a local gym as a hired trainer. Or just purchase equipment to keep in your car and then have mobile training—either at the persons home, or a park or beach (depending where you live). My client that I see now at home, has various therabands and small weights which are enough for us to have a full exercise session.
Anyhow, hope that all helps. Please feel free to contact me if you have other questions.
Sorry about that Tianna. I’m working on the reply ‘notices’ now.
Thanks for sharing the great information!
Here is my perspective, having been “around the block”. I graduated from PT school in 1981, way before most of you were even born. I have worked all of my career for someone else, and am now very close to opening my own cash-based PT clinic where I will be the owner and sole practitioner. I am doing this ONLY for the autonomy to practice exactly how I want, not how my employer wants/needs. I expect there to be a lean year or two as I get up and running, but am at a point in my life where I can financially withstand the ebbs and flows. I am not expecting to make a fortune, employ others, open more clinics, etc…
I love what I do, and wouldn’t trade it for anything, but with the way the system has moved from a 4 year to a 6-7 year degree, I WOULD NOT DO IT AGAIN and rack up that kind of debt. You may be better off going to med school if you are looking at the potential for future earnings. There are more grants to pay off loans, etc. if you are willing to work in under-served areas.
Good luck!
I agree. Would never do it again. Reimbursement decreasing, Obamacare, and many other faults. I have owned multiple clinics in my time. Choose a better field. Be a lawyer. It’s easier school and you can work in any field when you graduate.
I went to a private grad school and am still paying off my loans but it has been worth every penny for me to be able to do what I love! Now, I didn’t always love PT. In fact, there were times I hated being a PT and thought about switching careers. This was mainly due to the fact that I always felt rushed and needed to see a certain number of patients per day. I also saw a number of unethical things happening in the clinics I worked for. Although I knew I was still helping people, I didn’t feel good about it because I felt we could do better as a profession. I’ve been a PT for about 13 years and started my own cash based practice 2 yrs. ago. It has rekindled my love for our profession and has made me a much better PT. But most importantly, it has allowed me to treat patients the way I want to treat them. I can’t imagine going back to an insurance based model of practice.
PT school is more expensive now so it may not be financially reasonable to incur such debt unless you are willing to work for less money for some time to build your skills and then go out on your own with at least part of your practice being cash based.
Generally, PTs don’t choose this profession to make tons of money- there are better jobs for that but you do have to make sure you can live on your income and still be able to pay your student loans and save for retirement. Good luck!
I have been thinking a lot about this lately as I am considering returning to school for a PhD. I have been practicing for 3 yrs now I graduated in 2010. I have been frustrated with the amount of money that I am able to make compared to the cost of student loan repayment and cost of living. I work in Utah where reimbursement is lower than most states. My starting job was in a private practice clinic where I saw an average 16 pts per day. My salary was around 50,000 per year. I was laid off after a year of working there because they could not afford to pay me anymore. There is something wrong with this picture. I am now working in home health physical therapy which is not really what I want to do but its the only way I can make a respectable salary. The reason I relate this story is give people the realistic idea of what PT salaries really are compared to the cost of education. I believe the national average for PT salary is around $ 60,000. The frustrating thing about this is that this is also close to average salary of those that have a bachelors degree and if you are thrifty you can get your bachelors degree with no debt. I understand that when you choose to go to PT school you are paying for a job you love to do but the stress of barely being able to pay your bills takes away from the love of the job.
I would also like to reiterate the comment above that mentioned that the potential to increase your salary as you gain experience is very low because reimbursement is actually going down. I figure the only way to significantly increase your salary is to own a successful clinic which as was said above may take at least 5-7 years after graduation. So if you add that up thats 6-7 year for DPT degree then another 5-6 years to develop the skills and relationships needed to start your clinic so thats 12 years before you start making enough money to pay off your student loans and afford to pay your bills and save for retirement.
To answer the original question I do not think the PT school is worth it at this time. Although I do love helping people and I enjoy the work that I do the low salary outweighs those things.
Hi Colbie,
Thank you for the candid comments. I’m Jarod’s friend whom he speaks of. I wrote a full post below. Your comment about the stress of barely being able to pay bills taking away from the love of the profession is one of my biggest concerns.
It’s easy to just focus on how much you’d love the profession, but I think it’s important to look for factors that aren’t so obvious.
Shane
Let me be honest here. As a former practising PT who has now gone into another field, I can tell you that PT does not pay well. If that is your reason for choosing it as a career, please reconsider. PT is not for everyone, its one of those fields that you’ll either love it or you will hate it. I read statistics that it has one of the highest drop-out and attrition rates in all health professions. And there is good reason why.
Average salary first year out of uni is 50-60k, but expect your salary to be capped very quickly. An average PT earns probably 70-80k. Experienced PTs or ones who run their own business can expect to earn maybe 90k plus, but often these guys are working 50-60hrs a week, maybe 5.5 or 6 days a week and may have sacrifice some of their leave or sick pay, take work home etc. So if you were to calculate what they are really earning based on a 40hr week, most won’t be earning more than 80-90k.
Now, is this really any better than your average white collar worker who has a bachelor degree? In my opinion, no, and in many cases I would say it’s less pay. So why put yourself through extra education to get there? Only do it if you love the jobs otherwise you’ll be very disappointed, because the salary is very underwhelming.
Thanks for your input, Stevie. Just wanted to make a quick addition based on your comment so readers know there are outlier options they can strive for … though my situation of owning a cash-based practice is not exactly common, now that I don’t have to spend much time marketing, I currently work about 28 hours a week on my practice (I spend more hours on other businesses) and make right at $100K pre-tax from this clinical business.
Yes, there are always people making good money in every field, though as you’ve mentioned it is the minority.
The point of my original post is for people thinking about choosing PT as a career, please don’t use money as your motivating factor because I can tell you from experience you will be very disappointed, and judging by the comments here, that certainly seems to be the consensus. I’m not saying that it’s impossible to make good money, but there are definitely better ways to do it than getting a PT degree. If your reasoning is because you love the nature of the job and helping patients, then go ahead you’ll more likely be a satisfied practitioner.
Couldn’t agree more … very well put. Thanks again Stevie
WHat would be a good alternative to PT school? i currently hold a degree in kinesiology and am thinking about applying to PT school for next year. It is very competitive where I live though and I am not sure what my other options are . any help is appreiciated
I absolutely hate to say this but the busy (self-employed) personal trainers AND massage therapists in most areas are able to make more than the typical staff physical therapist. They also deal with waaaaay less regulation headaches.
The $90 per hour is mentioned in SEC-required fiings for large firms like US Physical Therapy (USPh). My small practice (7 PTs in 3 sites) was able to collect about $78 per visit. The difference is largely due to the better negotiating position and ability to monitor contracts the large firms enjoy.
I started my own cash-based PT practice 2 years ago and it was the best decision of my career. I had a vision of being able to treat one client at a time and focusing on outstanding care. It is now starting to pay off. I have created a refreshing position of being able to help people, as well as, maintain a great family life where I can participate in my kid’s activities. The trade off: I’m not bringing in a huge salary yet, but it is growing steadily. I think there is a lot to be said for autonomy, flexibility and successfully achieving one’s goals of being an entrepreneuer.
Is it worth it to throw down the money into a private school education in PT today? I wouldn’t do it today if I knew I would be having to work for some large PT group or physician-owned group that pushed me to see 15+ patients a day. You need to thrive on getting opportunities to help people, and not be focused on the future salary you might have. There are many other professions to consider outside of healthcare where you can make substantially more money. Good luck!
First off, I’d like to thank Jarod for helping me with this and allowing me to use his blog to reach out to other real life PTs.
Secondly, I’d like to thank Justin for adding his perspective and experience.
To make this short and sweet, I’m not the typical prospective PT student as I’m 35 yrs old, already earn an ok income since I have an engineering degree and I’m looking for a career change into a path that I actually look forward to, am passionate about and can build a profitable company around.
I’m completely sold on PT as a career that can provide me all of the above except for the “profitable company” part. I have evaluated it from many perspectives and the primary perspective that I’m having trouble with is the economic/business perspective.
Off the bat, if I did actually get accepted to PT school, I’m looking at $50k in tuition (actually very cheap per credit) and at least $72k in financed living expenses for 3 yrs resulting in $122k of loans at about 10% avg interest. On top of that, I’d lose at least $60k in income after taxes factored in. If I took 10 yrs to pay off the $122k debt, it would cost me $195k after interest for a total of $255k. Furthermore, I’d have to pay the loan off at a rate of $19k a yr.
So, I’m really struggling with the idea that I’d be 39 when I’d graduate and would only be looking at earning $50k to $70k a year as an employed PT out of school with a $20k bill each year for the cost of becoming a PT. Also, I see that PTs avg about $74k per year in the Denver, CO metro area with the top 10% earning in the $90k range.
With these numbers, given the $20k/yr of loan payments and considering the cost of living today with higher costs of living in the future, I’d be netting less than I’m netting now and would be living off a pretty tight budget until I’m in my late 40s when the loans are paid off.
You may be wondering why I’m looking at employment numbers as I expressed that I’d like to own my own company. However, while this is my goal, I don’t know what unexpected hurdles that may prevent or delay that plan, so I’m looking at it from the conservative perspective of “what can I depend on earning, worst case scenario”.
Also, I’d be putting off saving much for retirement during an important time frame for investment growth (the earlier one saves, the longer it can grow).
So, with all of this, my biggest fear is replacing one problem (not enjoying my daily grind of work) with another problem of financial stress for many years. In other words, at the moment, the biggest stress in my life is sitting in front of a computer 8 hrs a day, continually working for someone else on my employer’s agenda and not my own personal agenda. However, I have minimum financial stress.
If I move forward with PT, I see myself eliminating my current biggest stress but red lights are flashing saying I’ll end up having major financial stress managing the debt, given a comparatively low income for such specialization. Not too long ago, I was out of work and couldn’t get an interview. Before this, I never realized how detrimental financial stress can be on one’s wellbeing. I don’t want to be in that place again.
Now, I know PTs like Jarod have successfully carved out a niche for themselves operating their own cash based practices, but I don’t want to assume that I will automatically have that success too. It is apparent to me that such cash based practices target a market of people who value specialized one-on-one therapy enough that they’re willing to pay for it out of pocket. I’m also seeing more and more PTs turning to this business approach.
While this looks attractive on the surface, this tells me that more and more PTs are trying to enter this market too, which is much smaller than the market that insurance based practices target. This causes me to believe that grabbing market share, as a cash based practice, will become more and more difficult as time goes on. Since insurance doesn’t factor into the equation in a cash based practice, it operates in more a free market. In a free market, as competition increases, the price of services will decrease naturally as more and more PTs compete for the same customers.
Therefore, I’m also trying to educate myself on the reimbursement rates of private insurance so that I know what I can expect if I were forced to run an insurance based practice due to barriers to entry into an crowded cash based market. This information seems to be very hard to come by. I’ve heard $50 to $100+ per visit depending on the insurance company and the therapy performed.
It may sound like I’m over complicating this but I can’t afford to make a mistake.
I have worked in CO now for about 10 years as a PT and I would say that the average for the Denver area is quite a bit lower, especially if you would like to work in outpatient ortho. You can see what some hospitals pay when they post their jobs. I think to really be successful in a cash based practice, you have to offer something that people just can’t find with their insurance, such as vestibular, Pilates, or other nitches.
I am in complete agreement with Colbie.
My student loan debt after undergrad and grad school is well into the 6 figure arena.
At the time, I thought getting my doctorate was a great idea. Unforntuately when I initiated my schooling in California, only private programs were offering a DPT as state schools were not allowed to offer a degree greater than a master’s at that time. Now, if I was to re-do it again, I’d probably skip the undergrad degree with all it’s underwater basketweaving courses that we have to take, do a PTA program at a community college and eventually bridge it to a PT program after a few years of experience.
My love for the outpatient setting and using my manual therapy skills is why I became a PT, but at this stage in my career I rarely get to use these skills. I work as a travel/contract PT in skilled nursing and acute care to earn better money to pay my debt down, I am away from my husband months at a time on contracts and I usually work 6-7 days/ week picking up extra per diem work to bridge the gaps most weeks out of the year.
I dream of the day that I could afford to work in a private practice, or even take the financial risk to open my own cash pay practice.. or heck, even live full time under the same roof as my husband, or god forbid, afford to be able to have a family. But, in the meantime, I am working very hard just to pay down debt, look forward to the day that I can return to doing the type of PT work I enjoy, and pray that Medicare cuts don’t completely eliminate our profession’s salary security.
Shane,
I commend you for thoroughly thinking out your decision. You seem like you have pretty good financial savvy… And I think you said it best when you said the following:
“So, with all of this, my biggest fear is replacing one problem (not enjoying my daily grind of work) with another problem of financial stress for many years. In other words, at the moment, the biggest stress in my life is sitting in front of a computer 8 hrs a day, continually working for someone else on my employer’s agenda and not my own personal agenda. However, I have minimum financial stress.”
So the big question is, “what is more important to you?”
I have two private practices, and four of my current employees are currently getting their doctorate of physical therapy at a private school. The investment that they are putting into it is astronomically high, and I have explained to them that they’re going to have to find a way to make $80-$120,000 a year, so that they can recoup their school investment within a reasonable amount of time.
Physical therapy is a very rewarding profession… I don’t think any of us can disagree with that. But for me personally, financial stress completely outdoes whatever my profession can do for me. The stress that it puts on my personal life, and my ability to be a provider for my wife and children, outweighs my love for the profession.
Unless you plan opening up your own private practice very soon out of physical therapy school, then I personally wouldn’t do it.
If your biggest stress right now is “sitting in front of a computer 8 hrs a day, continually working for someone else on my employer’s agenda and not my own personal agenda”, Then you won’t be a happy camper, because you will have the same type of stress, just standing for most of your day, along with $122,000 worth of debt.
Hi Dr. Jarod!
Hum…loaded question. For, me the answer (now, 20 years later with my focus on treatment which is John F. Barnes Myofascial Release – MFR) is a resounding NO….
BUT! I am appreciative of the schooling I received. My delusion is that I never found anything that consistently worked with patients. I would use every tool I had, they would feel a bit better, some would be “100%” better, but many would show up three to 6 months later with the same or more ailments. The problem, we aren’t allowed to treat the body as a whole!
I’ve since discovered the amazing fascial system and all that gets trapped and stored there setting up intense muscle memory that will continue to drive patterns, postures, disease and even depression into deeper and deeper ruts until this is released. MFR does not sit well with mainstream “get em in get em out – bottom dollar is all that matters” physical therapy clinics. If fact, there are no protocols, but a developed and learned art.
All I have to have to learn this extremely effective technique is a license to touch… so, PT, RN, Massage Therapist, Chiropractor, Dentist, Doctor (I’m sure there are others!) Classes are not cheap but sure beat the cost of PT school and repeats (which everyone takes over and over again learning something new with each class experience) are half price.
I don’t make a dime off of mentioning JFB – MFR. I only wish I was 20 years into this amazing practice instead of only 3 years into it!
Now, having said that, my PT license gives mainstream patients the “confidence” that I know what I’m doing etc…but they are blown away when they get the relief they’ve not gotten from traditional PT. That is not to say that traditional PT does not have it’s place but I’ve found that until you get patients out of their fascial straight jackets, the muscle memory patterns will drive them right back to square one.
I can give them the appropriate receipt so they can submit to insurance (I don’t bill). But I’ve always hated to be at the mercy of a doctor’s order and have found a local college who will give me credit for my PT classes so that I will only need to take minimal classes to get my MT license (and finally be able to treat Medicare patients!)
I understand all the pros and cons about doing this but I can’t be hindered by a society who is looking and begging for alternative help in mainstream medicine. Let’s face it, we’ve got a slu of docs coming out who are facing tough health care law changes, reimbursement changes etc – many will become so disgruntled with the system that acting out can cost lives – and sadly has. There is plenty of evidence out there to support what’s already happening.
I love my MFR practice. It’s calming and it quiets me down 24-7 and I can really connect with patients in a healing way that traditional PT has never offered me. I can say that cause I’ve done traditional PT for 18 years. MFR is so effective (my testimony from a cracked back and broken hip due to a MVA 4 years ago would be enough to convince anyone!) that it’s all I do now and I make all the money I want to make. And, for me, that’s why I went to PT school for anyway… to help people at a very profound level and make a living.
If I had to do it over again, I would get my MT license to get the basics of the human body, then I would start taking Johns classes… and just build build build from there… 20 years later, I still wouldn’t have paid the equivalent that I did for PT school! More learning and more PT degrees, never did a thing for me… until I found JFB-MFR.
Oh, yes… and my practice is cash pay only…
Cheers to all of our dreams to help people!
Hi Marcia – When you say MT license, do you mean massage therapy license? I assume so – just wanted to verify! I’m a yoga teacher (and I have a corporate job) and have been learning a ton from Katy Bowman and Jill Miller (Yoga TuneUp), so your comments on Myofascial Release really resonate with me! I am 39 and considering PT, but I am in the same boat as Shane. I would be taking on a ton of debt to make less than I make now in banking (trading one stress for another). I really want to help people feel better, but I want to be smart about the path I take!
Listen Heather—I hate to be the downer here but I’m one of the few that will tell it to you straight. Don’t get into PT school. The debt is unmanageable. That isn’t all of it though. Our field has become a dishonorable mess out there–all genres—skilled nursing, home health and outpatient. Skilled is nothing but rampant fraud–I won’t even contract for skilled rehab anymore and haven’t since 2009. Home health is crashing as a bureaucratic nightmare and lack of ethics is on the rise. I’m in a home health contract now and HH is about to be history with me too. Outpatient is where I’ve been at for 5-6 years mostly. I’m a traveler. I’m a traveler because I have to use three to four travel companies and be licensed in 3-4 states to find decent clinics. I turn down 4/5 as most see patients two at a time or one every 20 minutes. It IS that bad out there. Also unless you work (like I do) in the northwest, alaska and maine you’ll find that the majority of patients are chronic pain now. It didn’t used to be like that. Chronic pain is the new thing which is largely unhealthy lifestyle–bluntly–obese, whining, unmotivated professional victims that you can’t solve. Really PT profession, I would like to know exactly which chronic pain patient you had any more than temporary effects with until they return a few months later?
Our profession has become ridiculous. We are largely charlatans that are now destroyed by the bureaucracy, Obamacare, and a new type of Generation X patient that is largely a complete waste of our time. Do you really want to walk into that field with over 100K in debt?
I only stay in because I can walk away in less than 5 years and can contract until then. But it comes down to two choices—
1) be like everyone else and just see two patients at a time and be a glorified trainer. And continue to cater to the patient with a million comorbidities that you can do exactly nothing about.
2) be in a constant battle with the other idiots who are doing the above
BTW: I love yoga–stick to that and add MFR, you could do wonders for people who are actually motivated.
Hope this helps
Dear Heather, Charles forgot a 3rd option: learn how to run a business and set it up the way YOU want to treat patients and benefit others … tell insurance companies to shove it and spend as much time as you feel necessary with every patient, and set YOUR prices rather than being told by ins. companies what they’re willing to pay you. I and many other PTs out there have been successful in doing exactly what I just described. I’m not saying that much of what Charles said is not the unfortunate reality for the majority of our profession … I’m just saying it’s not the ONLY reality.
Best of luck!
Valid point Jarod and good for you. Obviously you’re in the minority as well. Well done.Glad someone else gets it—-C
Thanks Charles!
Retired 2 years ago after 40 years as a PT. My area is dominated by POPTS, Athletico, and ATI corporations. My solo private practice dried up due to lack of referrals. My big orthopedic surgical group referrals stopped referring after 18 years as they wanted a piece of my clinic. I said no. They did not like that. I carried an exclusivity clause in my lease. These orthopods, who leased in the same building, attempted to open their own PT clinic, but could not. So they bought the vacant lot next door and built their own building and put me out of business. Fortunately, I invested well in equities and bonds and am retired financially well. Good riddance to PT. We will never flourish until we get rid of MD referrals. Those guys are greedy money grubbing pigs the MD’s. Mongo pawn in game of life! HA!
That “Good Riddance” to PT is a real shame to hear but I get it completely. It’s not a congratulations to me for soon to retire from the profession young. I wanted to stay in, keep learning, go to bongo cont ed in manual therapy and be practicing at 80. I still go to bongo cont ed because while I’m in I refuse to slack and not be the best I can. But this profession is driving me out too.
This will bother you. I am 100% against direct access. Due to our complete lack of ethics over the last 15 years I’ve been in. Two patients at a time in most clinics, dovetailing, techs doing treatments and shoddy home health has made me want PT to have not one inch more. I will totally change that stance when PT changes its ethics (or lack thereof)
And I’ve seen that system of MDs making tons of money owning PT clinics totally out of their scope. Just as bad.
Problem is we used to say one day the system will be broken. It now is.
“This will bother you. I am 100% against direct access”
Well, Charles, “bother” does not even begin to describe it. If I weren’t buried in a mountain of work for my clinic (where we spend an hour one-on-one with every patient and sure as shit have the ability to safely and ethically utilize Direct Access) I’d give you a detailed explanation of exactly what I think… but I just don’t have the time right now.
Heather – I’m with Charles on this one. The field is so rampant with fraud it makes your head spin. Physical therapists have lost the soul and ownership of the profession today, and it is no longer about actually helping the patient but merely collecting the paycheck while attempting to look as if you are actually doing something effective. Regulations, greed, laziness, etc…. all contributed to the downfall. Most PTs I know, especially those who’ve come out in the last 10 years, no longer actually “touch patients or even break a sweat.” If you’re not dirty, sweaty, and a little physically tired at the end of the day, you’ve got to actually ask yourself what you did. Unfortunately, most PTs do not anymore – they like to stay “clean” while attempting to actually touch the patient as little as possible. Treating multiple patients at one time, which is commonly expected today of PTs, is ineffective as well as fraudulent. Did you know that CPT codes, which the profession “leases” from the AMA, have conditions attached to them which are still in effect regardless of the setting in which they are used? And if you are accused of something, whether it be billing or something related to patient care, don’t expect the company you are working for to support you – they will only attempt to minimize their exposure. “Compliance departments” in hospitals, facilities, etc…. are not there to make sure the organization is doing the right thing – their job to is to minimize risk to the facility, and if that means pinning the blame on a PT for something that happened that was requested by the facility, then it will be done. You have to ask yourself why when you as a PT is asked to do something which is “somewhat dubious or questionable” why the facility won’t put their request in writing….the Corporate Compliance Departments know that if they put it in writing, the organization cannot deny responsibility, and advises institutions/facilities “NOT TO PUT ANYTHING” in writing. If the organization can deny responsibility, they will, and if push comes to shove, the PT will be thrown under the bus. What about the Boards of Physical Therapy that each state has? The same with them. Their job is to “protect the public from unscrupulous or bad PTs,” but more importantly to protect the image of PT, and if that means throwing the PT under the bus in order to appear “stern and in control,” then kiss your butt goodbye. BOPT(s) operate with an agenda, and I guarantee its not about protecting the profession. The profession of PT has become dishonorable and rife with fraud, and it is becoming harder and harder to operate honestly in the profession. In fact, fraud has become so bad and widely accepted that most PTs don’t even know they are breaking the law and are operating fraudulently. They believe the facility/company they are working for would tell them if they are. But these facilities are there to make a buck, and a PT is just a tool to make a buck. And if that tool wears out, asks too many questions, or loses its effectiveness, it is discarded. Don’t have any illusions as to your worth in healthcare. If you really want to help people, become a massage therapist and incorporate MRF into your treatment as mentioned earlier. You would be amazed what it actually does for patients – but that would mean you might actually break a sweat and get your hands dirty which most PTs don’t do anymore. And as to starting your own cash-based business, in the right geographical region you “might” be able to. But then you’ve got to take into consideration that physicians are pressured into referring to PTs that are part of the company that they work for. The days of the independent physician referring to whomever they want is almost over. Plus, many physicians over the last 20 years have come to look at physical therapy as largely ineffective because of the reasons mentioned above. I’ve known many independent PT practices to fail simply because even in an area with needs, the physicians will refer to their company’s PT clinics. And in the era of everyone being required to have insurance, of which most policies have PT benefits, why would they pay out of pocket if their insurance would pay for it? Most patients don’t know a good physical therapist from a bad physical therapist. Would I undertake a $100k debt to become a PT? Never – run. I’ve been working as PT for 19+ years and am looking at getting out. The risks are too high, the model fraudulent, and profession has become emasculated. Don’t expect that will change. Good luck, Heather.
Geez, all this stuff going on in the healthcare field regarding PT is unfortunate.. I was seriously considering being one, but then decided not to follow through if that’s how it was gonna be. Even though I do want to very much help people, I don’t want to get into more debt than I can pay all the while live with the fact that I’d participate in such a fraud.
Is it the same with Occupational Therapy? Heck, I’m 19 so I still have some time to look around and experiment.
Hi Marcia!
I currently work as a PT Aide as I finish my prequisites to get into PTA school. I’ve noticed first had how the field is changing. Running through patience likes they’re numbers. It really frustrates me. I got into this field to genuinally help people. I never wanted to be filthy rich. I just want to help people and make a comfortable living. I would love to get in touch with you. Is there anyway to get in contact with you? Thank you
When I was contemplating PT school because of the debt I would accrue someone told me, “be the best PT you can be and the money will come.” And you know what? She was right. I’m passionate about helping people and I love what I do. I stayed in an insurance based clinic for two years and it wasn’t for me. I decided to do private Pilates and word on the street was “she’s a great Pilates Instructor!” And it was only because I had a graduate degree in Physical Therapy! That made me an excellent instructor. Clients didn’t see the value in paying cash for Physical Therapy, but I hung in there. It’s been 10 years and I am busy, super busy as a Cash Pay PT…and expanding my practice! I strive to get to the root of the problem and studied the best methods I could find to come up with quick solutions.
So, what I would like to let you know that anything is possible. Don’t worry about the money, just love what you do. It will show in your work and the money will come.
Best of luck to you and Jarod, you are an awesome Blog-ist!
Cheers,
Gina
This is such a good topic and one I have thought over many times…especially when frustrated with the state of PT in the garden variety out-patient clinics. My first point to make to people considering the field is be strategic about your school costs! I graduated in 2002. I lived with my parents, went to an in-state school and worked nights and weekends as a manager for a hospital based fitness center. I was able to graduate with no debt, which was great. On the flip side new grad salaries at that time in my area were starting at 42K, not great. Several of my classmates had tuition buy back agreements with the VA, Indian Health services and rural placements. I know there are still some good offers out there if you are willing and able to relocate and commit yourselves for 2-3 years. That being said, had I graduated with a lot of debt and a very real ceiling cap as an employee, I would have really doubted my career plan.
Point number two, I think we are about to see a huge shift in the way PTs are utilized in hospital based systems. I think we will see fewer and fewer in-patient jobs, as sadly these jobs may be transitioned into “non-skill” jobs. For those hospital jobs still available, I think that they will be high volume jobs that can really lead to burn out.
On the up side, with the advent of more and more states going to real direct access PT as a profession has a great opportunity to capture a bigger slice of the “concierge” medical market and sports oriented specialty practices and wellness. This market is there for the PTs who are ready to embrace entrepreneurship. The caveat is, this takes a lot of personal discipline and hard work and you have to be prepared to learn business skills that go beyond what was taught in the PT schools. The PT schools would be doing the profession a great service by fleshing out the programs with more practice building instruction (this is where we can really learn something from the Chiropractor programs). Also, this means recruiting students who demonstrate an entrepreneurial bent.
So, yes I think a PT education is still worth it, but it is important to be realistic about the cost of the education and how the industry is morphing.
Best of luck to everyone out there thinking about going to PT school and big up to you Jarod for providing this forum!
Lisa
I just want to thank everyone who has taken the time to give such great feedback, and to thank Shane for asking the right questions and really analyzing the likely long-term outcomes of different possibilities.
I hope the interactions here have been helpful to you and to any other prospective students who find this post. Best of luck!
I’ve owned an insurance-based practice in Michigan for 3 years. I see about 35 hour-long visits per week with a variety of insurance policies. Roughly half of my patients have BCBS, which pays about $130 for 3 manual ubits and 1 exercise unit. On the lower end is United Healh Care which pays a flat “day rate” of $70 no matter what units are billed. Medicare usually lands around $90 for 4 units. Last month my average reimbursement was $115 per visit. I have one full time PT employee, and between the 2 of us we see around 65 visits per week. IF IF IF all gets paid, I can make a lot of money. But lately, collections have been around 75%. Still profitable, but not what it should be. Hope this helps.
I am a second year physical therapy student at a NY state school. After undergrad, I worked at an outpatient PT clinic for a year doing paper pushing work to try and “save” for graduate school (ha). Firstly, some insurances pay a whopping $42 a visit for PT visits in New York-granted New York is one of the worst states to practice physical therapy, but that’s appalling. Secondly, I came out of an elite, very expensive private school with about $24k of debt, which barely got paid down in my year off because of other expenses (applying, going to interviews, etc, adds up when you are working a desk job). I will finish PT school with about $110k if I am lucky, even with in-state tuition that keeps going up every year and living at home at least for the first year. I am choosing to move out for my second year due to the difficulties of living at home at age 24. The debt problem hangs over my head every day, and quite frankly causes me quite a bit of anxiety. However, despite the stress, I love PT school and I cannot imagine another career for myself. Also, I thought I would share a couple stories of encouragement. I have a friend who is a PT and who is married to a PT, they both have PT school debt (lower than mine, but still) and the husband previously attended another professional school, and has the debt from that as well. This total will sail over my $110k total, and they just bought a new house, new cars, and are doing just fine. There are ways to do it-look for loan forgiveness jobs, join government programs, consolidate loans. If they take 30 years to pay off, they take 30 years. Budget your money to where it is important and be savvy; if that is second nature then it wont affect your life as much. Another former boss had probably over $200k in loans and did choose the 30 year repayment. He is also doing fine and you would never know he has stifling student loan debt. It’s what you make of it I guess, and how proactive you are about handling it. I’m still terrified, but the encouragement I have received from friends has put it into some perspective. If this is what you want to do, there are plenty of ways to make it work.
Hello everyone,
I just wanted to thank you all for your insights and thoughts.
I majored in Exercise science, graduated in 2008 with my BA, and have been traveling and working ever since in fields completely unrelated to PT. Now, 5 years, marriage, and 2 kids later, i’m thinking about going back to school to get that DPT.
The program around here is going to cost about 26k per year, which seems unbelievably high. I currently don’t have any debt and that feels really good. I’m in the same boat where I don’t want to take a major LOSS in income while simultaneously incurring DEBT. I like what Elise said about budgeting your repayment into your monthly expenses…but the idea of going back into debt is really quite nerve-racking.
I think the most important question here is Quality of Life. Most likely I will have to work 95% of the weekdays for the rest of my life until 65…so what do I want to do with that time? it sounds like PT is a very rewarding career, and I’ve always been told I am a healer….why let a little $$ get in the way of a dream?
Thanks guys
Very good points, Richard. If it’s a dream for you, I say go for it. It’s an incredibly rewarding career. We wish you all the best and look forward to having you as a colleague.
Hi everyone,
I also want to know if earning my DPT will be worth it. I recently got laidoff from my job in corporate america and I live in NYC and am exploring a career change. Physical Therapy offers a lifetime of job stability, decent compensation, and the ability to live wherever and practice.
is it worth it for me to take 10 pre-reqs and then go to school for 3 years for this DPT degree?
I think that more input would just be repeating what is said above. Best of luck in your decision. It’s an incredibly rewarding career, but it comes with an ever-rising cost to attain the degree, and making that decision will be different for everyone based on a number of individual circumstances.
Please give me more than that… DPT school is roughly 150k over 3 years factoring in living expenses. Also when you include 11 pre-reqs at the commuity college its about another 12k and the GRE.
Is it worth all of this aggravation?
I guess what I was saying before, is that my take on this is pretty clearly stated in the blog post and there are numerous other opinions and different perspectives in the comments section that answer exactly what you are asking. If you absolutely love helping people in the way a PT does, then it will be worth it. If you’re simply looking for a career change but aren’t really passionate about PT, then No, it likely will not be worth the substantial cost/debt and time it takes to earn a DPT.
I don’t mind the idea of helping other people… I am looking to make a career change and land a job that pays decently and does not disappear for no reason. With that said seeing how difficult it is to find a new job, you don’t think its worth it because of a stable paycheck and career? I am not passionate about PT it’s something I would do but it’s not a dream job or anything like that.
It’s also going to cost $120k for 3 years of DPT school + 12k roughly to earn the pre-reqs. You would advise against it? I would have no other career option at the moment.
10-20 years ago, those who “don’t mind the idea of helping people” and were “not passionate about PT” could justify the cost and time of PT school a lot easier than today because it was so much cheaper then. I honestly think you really need to love it and be passionate about it to justify the expense anymore… it has become that expensive.
With the aging population, there will always be plenty of work for physical therapists and it should always be very easy to find a job; I’m just not sure how strong the paychecks will remain… Declining reimbursements will cut into margins and I don’t expect salaries to climb as quickly as they had in the past.
I hate to turn anyone away from this extremely rewarding profession, but if you don’t feel passionate about it, I would really think twice.
When you say there won’t be a work shortage this is a very positive insight. However when you say there are declining reimbursements is this a long-term dilemma? What is driving the salaries of PT’s down? How would you recommend a PT optimizing his earnings potential?
Also, I am looking at tuition costs for DPT programs and it looks to range around 120-150k. That’s a lot of money. It appears as though the starting salary for a PT is around 75k correct me if I’m wrong.
Yes, declining reimbursements is a long-term serious dilemma, and is the reason many current-future PTs find themselves visiting this website. To answer your question on optimizing earning potential, I would suggest checking out the video here: https://drjarodcarter.com/physical-therapy-student-advice/
Best of luck with your decision! It’s a wonderful career and there will always be the potential to earn a very nice living in PT… but you need to love it, and you need to produce great results.
Can someone tell me what the starting salary is for a dpt in 2013? and what you think it will be in 2016? Also what are the salaries for home health and travel Pts? also is it easy to find contract jobs? I got accepted to a pt program and am contemplating whether to do it or not.
The salary info you’re requesting can be found with some online research. Travel and home health PT positions tend to pay more than full-time outpatient orthopedic positions… especially if you’re willing to work in rural areas. I get calls every week from recruiters trying to place PTs in contract jobs, so at the moment, yes, it’s very easy to find this type of work.
Best of luck!
I have looked online for some figures but different websites say different numbers and when i go to forums different people say different. Are you able to get 75k or atleast 70 starting in outpatient?
thanks
It completely depends on setting and geographic location… new grads can earn that much if they’re willing to do geriatrics in rural areas, but you’d be hard pressed to find that salary in a big city doing outpatient orthopedics (except maybe in cities with really high cost of living). The range is huge and you should be able to find city-specific data with online research.
Thanks for all of your input Dr. Carter. I also watched your video clip in front of St. Augistine DPT students about running a cash-based practice it was very informative.
I am about to begin my observation at a hospital based in NYC and am going to base my decision to further pursue taking pre-reqs around the experience.
School is seriously a very expensive undertaking as you are aware… Looking ahead 4-5 years if I were to graduate from a DPT program, how can I optimize my earnings potential? I would need to be in all cash-based private practice but I would imagine thats difficult to do right away. What do you think is the best way to make a “great” living not “good” from the degree as a first job?
I’d have to say that the things I covered in the St Augustine video you mentioned will be a good start to maximizing you’re new-grad earning potential. I wouldn’t suggest going directly into practice for yourself anyhow… finding a great mentor in your first job is actually much more important in the long-run than getting a really high starting salary (especially if you plan to start your own practice … if you plan to always be an employed PT, then the starting salary is much more important because your percentage raises over your career may be tied to that number if you don’t change jobs).
I have been practicing in skilled rehab/LTC for over 2 years since I received my DPT in 2011. I have been w the same company n have a salary of roughly 56,000. I have 7hrs and 15mins of treatment in my 8hr day. I have two PTAs working under me and I’m responsible for performing managerial tasks when my PM is unable (which is often). In the 2years I’ve been there, I have yet to receive a raise (wage freezes), have had continuing education cut and have no match to my 401k, nor tuition reimbursement. I have approximately 120,00 in student debt. We are constantly being drilled about our PCH and get constant threats of losing hours if we don’t meet the expectations (despite the extra managerial tasks that are outside my job description, as provided to me by my company). If I was able to do it again, I would certainly do the PTA program but would have huge hesitancy about DPT. I love my job and the role of a PT but unfortunately, companies are too anxious to make their millions off the healthcare system, including that of Medicare (a whole other discussion). Reimbursements getting harder and companies are getting greedier.
So sorry to hear of your situation. I know you are certainly not alone, but I also know there are vastly better opportunities out there. Don’t stay in a miserable situation any longer than absolutely necessary.
Hi Dr. Carter,
First and foremost, I want to tell everyone who has commented and is or is considering being a DPT. The ARRA program currently allows medical professionals to get up to $50k of loan debt paid off in exchange for a 2-year commitment in an underserved area. You can get an additional $35k of loan repayment each year for the 4th and 5th years if you stay. Unfortunately, this program currently does not include physical therapists. So I would encourage everyone who is a PT or considering PT to email your respective Congressional Representatives about this issue. There are some companies that still do loan-repayment programs as well if you search for them.
My main goal is to be able to work in developing nations where they desperately need physical therapists; but this will not pay well, if at all. I’m worried about being forced to work full time just to pay the loans off and being unable to stay home and raise my children if I have them or do missions at all.
My current dilemma is this: I have family I can live with if I attend Youngstown State University in Ohio. The tuition there is (after fees) roughly $53,000 en total. All-in-all, I’d come out with about $50,000, as a conservative estimate, before interest, after deducting my savings.
But the program is not very impressive; the license first-time pass rate is 79%, according to one outside website. That is lower than I’ve seen elsewhere; they claim an exam pass rate of 98% on their website, which may be an ultimate pass rate. Graduation rate is 95%. In any case, the city is a bummer, and not a very safe place to live. The program curriculum itself has less classes than other programs I’ve looked at, and they don’t have any business classes. They only do somewhere between 26-32 weeks in clinicals. I don’t know how good their clinical connections are, or even how to determine if they’re good. I’ll be visiting next weekend to ask some questions.
On the other hand, Ohio State is one of the better schools in the nation, but I would come out with about $80,000 after deducting my savings. Same story for another school I’m considering. OSU clearly goes above and beyond the accreditation requirements; they offer business and reimbursement classes, their first-time pass rate is 97% according to the same website, and they claim a 100% first time pass rate in 2010 on their website. They do 40 weeks of clinicals and I am sure that they have good clinical connections. They even have international opportunities to get involved in missions during the program.
Is there a significant difference between programs? Will going with the cheaper school likely affect my success in starting a clinic in a developing country or get a good job here? Do recruiters anticipate, with all the healthcare changes, looking at schooling as a measure for hiring people?
I don’t want to go into more debt that I need to. YSU is a great deal if its all the same in the end; but I’m worried about what I miss out on with that lower price tag. I want to be excellent at my job, not just good enough to pass my exam. Maybe it’s what I put into it… but the opportunities to do that don’t appear to be the same.
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated! Thank you for opening this discussion.
Great questions, Teal. I’m hoping others who have hired new grads or worked with recruiters (and know what they look for) will weigh in.
I personally feel like quality of education you get in PT school is hugely important to how clinically effective you are as a new grad, but it seems like there is going to be a ton of work available regardless of where you attend school, especially if you’re willing to work in underserved areas. If you are adamant about becoming a great PT, I can tell you that a focus on continuing education and seeking out great mentorship will end up being far more important than where you started your educational journey.
It sounds like, via the repayment programs you mention above, you could actually go to OSU and get most of it paid off by working 4 to 5 years in underserved areas… Which I also think would be great experience leading into your work in developing nations. Perhaps this is something to consider.
Again, I hope others who have done more hiring and recruiting will weigh and on your questions.
I wish you all the best!
Thank you Dr. Carter. I would feel alot less nervous if the repayment plan I mentioned did currently pertain to PTs. It’s hard to know how the market and salaries for DPTs will change because of the ACA. Some opinions I’ve read think it will create a push for PTAs over DPTs, which begs the question about how recruiters would choose applicants in a more strained market. I did some more research yesterday, and YSU is ranked in the 17th percentile, out of 185 schools. OSU is in the 90th. I’m not sure the $40k I’d spend on YSU would even be worth that.
The real reason I chose PT in the first place was to go into international missions and have a great and flexible “mom” career thereafter. I’m 25 now and unmarried, so I hope to have a year or two after graduating to serve. After that or maybe at the same time, I’d like to start a family and adopt a couple children. With these kind of goals, I have no idea how I’d ever pay for the loans. I feel like I’m choosing between a great career and other ambitions.
I’m curious what the general opinion is of recent DPT graduates- would it be worth it? Based on the changes your seeing and the shift of care from private to a more centralized system? I have about $10k in the bank for school, and no debt. It would take me a good 10 years or more to get back to this position if I never got a secondary income. I could do missions now… But it’s when I get back that I’m unsatisfied. I’m with the other engineer- the job is boring and I don’t want to do it for the rest of my life. There’s no part-time option if I have kids and the market for biomedical is taking a hit because of the ACA too.
Would PTA be a better option?
That’s a tough one. Hard to push you in the PTA direction … although you acquire less debt, you also make a lot less money. May be trading one issue for another, but given your desire to only do your chosen profession on a part-time basis in the future, it’s difficult to suggest DPT given the astronomical costs these days. Wish I could give a more definitive answer on this…
Hoping others will weigh in over time (make sure you checked the email notification box for follow up comments)
Very interesting discussion. Current DPT students should check out this new-grad salary survey:
http://dptfinances.wordpress.com/2012/07/10/hello-world/
Great discussion!
First let me say I am an experienced PT and have worked OP the vast majority of my career. I love the idea of having a small cash based business as stated above. But to be realistic, every PT in OP wants this, it is not available for all in any given geographic region.
My career has been varied and the pay I received did increase as I added more expertise and offered more and more supervisory experience in the clinic. My best advice is to gain expertise in an area you love and become the best therapist you can in this area. It will eventually be the very best thing you do.
For those entering school I agree with what has already been said. Go to a state school if able and look carefully at the clinical affiliations that will be available to you. The mentors you have will affect your career enormously.
Good Luck!
Short answer: Hell no its not worth it.
I have been out of my DPT program going on 2 years, and while yes there are those such as Jarod who make a great situation for themselves with opening a practice, the vast majority of PTs holding a degree never get to this point.
If you do not become a director of some sort, own your own practice, or join a Home Health agency (which may be axed in the coming years), your earning potential is going to be complete garbage. If you truly believe that your “Quality of Life” and being able to “help people” is going to offset your ridiculously low earnings (once loan repayment is taken into account), I feel really sorry for you.
Just like countless others have posted, I actually do like being a PT. But, at the end of the day, having to constantly listen to people’s problems, having a ridiculous income:debt ratio, spending uncompensated time on documentation, and the significant time/effort it takes earning the degree all completely outweigh the benefits of being a PT. Just my 2 cents. Now, feel free to rip me apart… 🙂
I appreciate your candid and unfiltered input! It’s a bummer to read that you’re clearly so unsatisfied with your current situation, but I’m happy to see that you’re at least here at this site and presumably looking for a way to improve things. Best of luck!
Hi Dr. Carter,
I am fortunate to have a dad who is a doctor (internal medicine), so money will not be an issue for me in terms of paying school debt. If I get accepted into USC (high tuition but ranked #1), or a cheaper public school, which one would you recommend I choose?
If money isn’t an issue, go with the highest ranked school… but I think that’s really best asked of your father 🙂
haha that is true…but I read on student doctor forum for PT that rankings do not matter, and you should attend the cheapest school possible…what are your thoughts about that?
I think quality of education is more important than “school ranking” … so you should try to determine if you think the quality of the USC PT school is worth the added cost vs your cheaper options and the quality they provide. May not be easy to determine those things, but that’s the direction I would be thinking.
thanks for the advice! how would you determine the quality of a school’s program? Some things I can think of off the top of my head are:
1.) Pass rate for the boards
2.) Location
Also, how many schools would you recommend I apply for? My stats are as follows…
B.A. Economics (Minor Management) from UC Irvine- 3.5 GPA
Current Pre-req GPA: 3.6-3.8 (depending on the program)
GRE: 1160 (750 Q, 410 V, 4 Writing)
Volunteer: OC Rescue Mission, Intermural Sports (basketball, softball), Church Food Delivery Program
Volunteer: 200+ Outpatient, 70 SNF
Thanks!!
Apply to any that you’d be really excited to attend! I know some students who apply to well over 10 schools (which I think is overkill) … I applied to one, because I knew it was the one I most wanted to attend and I wouldn’t have been as happy with anything less (which in retrospect was not so intelligent and I also would not recommend to students these days :- )
thanks for the advice!!
Dr. Carter,
I have enjoyed your blog post. I am coming from another perspective though around the same age as your friend you ended up starting this for.
I am 35 years old turning 36 this year and have been a licensed PTA for over a year now. I was a career changer from working and having an undergraduate degree in Business for 10 years. The numbers played a role in me originally choosing the PTA field.
I work in the acute care setting and have learned so much. Now, I am finding a desire to grow and do more as a therapist and the idea of at DPT is back in the picture. PTAs in this state actually make a good salary and I have no debt. My issues on the decision is that the industry has become so business and efficiency based that txs are becoming simplified or limited because we have to get to the next pt or priorities.
I have found that PTs and PTs make about 10/hr difference. I have found a weekend program where I could continue to work but it will cost me 30k for 3 yrs. I won’t have debt at the end of the 3 years but will have lost that income.
I have now considered a PA program. It is 2 yrs and I will need less pre-reqs. I need 4 for PT school and 2-3 for PA school. PA school is about 1/3 the cost of this program.
I will be close to 40 when I’d be licensed as a DPT. I am in a place that financially that I can semi retire by 50. So I am looking at only 10 yrs of full time work. 5 yrs at 10/hr will pay back the lost income with 5 years of making more money. I like the idea of having the option to teach in my later years with the DPT. I can’t see me doing transfers into my 50’s.
PA’s make more money, and can get into tons of different specialties, (physiatry)?
I just hear that PA’s have a lot more stress. I can live comfortably not pursuing either, and eventually go into medical sales in my later years if I cared too, but I am a learner and have achieved academically.
Your thoughts are appreciated!
I really think that on this one, you have to go with where your heart is at, because the numbers don’t look terrible for you in any of the different scenarios … what would you be most passionate about doing/becoming, and is that reward going to be worth the cost?
Just following up with a few informational facts for the followers and our original student to be.
Have had my private practice in Dallas/Fort Worth area for 9 years.
Average reimbursement from insurance companies was $74 per visit from 2008 to 2012.
This past year (2013), our average visit collected was $70 per patient. This was primarily due to many individuals switching to Aetna, which in our area has a much higher capitated rate than other providers.
As for the cost of schooling. I would always encourage a student to look into all possible in state public schools as possible. I do not considerate it a good investment to have significant debt from a private institution that may run you three times the cost of the public university.
Please coniser studying your DPT or MD at the University of Puerto Rico Medical Sciences Campus in San Juan. It is CAPTE approved and it only cost $45per credit unit.
I graduated from that Program in 1984. I did my MS/ATC at ISU, Illinois and my tDPT at USF, Tampa. I specialized in performing exclusively FCE”s in PR, I work 20 hrs per week and make a 6 figure yearly salary. It is all about making a niche for yourself. Physical Therapy is a great profession, but you have to think outside the box and be creative.
Dr. Javier Espina,
I’m a 25 year old pursuing an exercise science degree and eventually looking to earn my DPT. My only question would be is the area safe that the University of Puerto Rico Medical Sciences Campus is in? The tuition for the school is very attractive.
I think the local authorities are best to ask with that question
Hi… I’m 35 years old, married and no children. I’ve been working whatever it presents to me from cashier to teacher assistant, janitor, tax prep. I started school when I was young and have a lot of college credits enough to have graduated already. But never really finished it for various reasons. I was too excited to get into physical therapist school, when I called and they said there are 600 people on a list waiting as well, so I would have to wait and see IF they call me. I’m 35 and tired of jumping from different kinds of jobs going nowhere. Thinking about the program it can take 2-3 years, graduating when I’m 38 years old, do you think I’m too old? who will hire a 38 year old for physical therapist with no prior history of it. What can you advice?
I don;t think the age will be as much an issue if you do well in school and in your clinical rotations, and have a personality that an employer can tell will fit well in his/her clinic and with your patients.
Hey guys, if you are an APTA member or can get access to the APTA.org website (I had to login in to view the article but maybe you can figure out another way), you can check out this recent article in “PT in Motion”about student loans and choosing schools based on cost vs reputation: https://www.apta.org/APTALogin.aspx?RedirectTo=http://www.apta.org/PTinMotion/2014/3/Feature/StudentLoans/
The average net revenue per visit in a balanced private practice is about $105, this would be with at least 30% workers compensation business, 40% private insurance and the rest Medicare. My wife is from Ireland and each year when we visit I try to meet up with one or more physiotherapist there. They are currently getting 55 Euro per visit for a 30 minute visit in their private practice setting which at today’s value is $76 per visit. They have ONE OFFICE PERSON who takes the payment, schedules them and gives them a receipt. Each physiotherapist has their own treatment room which they are fully responsible for cleaning and keeping up, and most clinics have 4-6 therapists. They usually have a very small “gym” (15′ x 15′) that is rarely used, and the owners of the clinic usually split the revenues with the physiotherapist 50/50. It is a very simple, efficient, yet profitable business. I saw a very similar situation in the clinics that I visited in France and Spain…. so what are we waiting for????
Simple, efficient, effective. Thanks for sharing! I do think we will see a transition of many future clinics toward this model
I resonate with most comments on this page. After working for 12 years as a therapist and seeing very little avenues for increased pay/reimbursement I too have become frustrated with the career. Experienced clinicians need avenues to reward their experience with the ability to bill codes that reimburse more. We need the option of advanced credentialing (ie nurses becoming nurse practitioner) which results in increased billing ability. It is difficult to justify going back for a PhD or APTA certification when my pay will not change.
Jarod:
New to your site and I want to say “Thanks” for putting out info to folks looking into becoming a Doctor of Physical Therapy.
Now, being a retired military guy, marriage, kid, and now 45, I have had various options with going back to graduate school and being in the health/fitness industry in and out of the military, I am seriously looking at going back to school to earn a DPT.
I am struggling like a lot of folks in this post and I want to share something I have read regarding going back to school, especially later in life or having a family.
1. You have to determine your WHY regarding going after your DPT. There has to be a damn good reason as to why you are going back for a DPT.
2. If you have family like I do, you will have a huge DECISION and will be forced to balance your TIME. One thing you can’t ever get back in life is TIME, so if you value your family, your wife, kids, etc… then you will be struggling with this decision like I am right now. So, if you can BALANCE it all out and if helping others move better, manage pain, and become a better version of themselves with their health/fitness, then becoming a DPT, PT, Doctor, etc… are all rewarding, but if you can’t BALANCE it all, then I would recommend waiting until the kids are older, then going back to school later in life.
3. As far as the costs of DPT or any medical schooling, I don’t think costs should be an issue. Under President Obama, there are plenty of loan options and forgiveness that are in play right now and soon, the government will be looking at ways to help folks with forgiving all their loans. I don’t think the issue of loan debt should hold anyone back from attending DPT. I even believe after you graduate and get a job with your DPT, the monthly payments can only be around 10 percent of your income, so I would research this and all loan options and don’t stress about repaying the loan, you usually get plenty of time to pay it off and the interest rates are very low compared to 20-30yrs ago, so don’t let that hold you back.
4. Lastly, I agree with Jarod that everyone’s decision to go for their DPT is going to be different, but everyone that does go for their DPT should have a PASSION or LOVE for physical therapy and help others with their health. If you are not passion about helping folks management their injuries, move better, or get better, then pursuing a career in physical therapy should not be a choice for anyone in this blog if you don’t love what you are doing. This goes for any career, having been a recruiter, career counselor, and in the military for 20yrs, I have seen many folks struggle to survive, work in a job they don’t love, and just be miserable. Life is to short and as I always tell people, have BALANCE in your life and prioritize it with Faith, Family, Friends, and Fitness…..work, work, work or grinding oneself through 3yrs of college only to find out you are doing it for money or find out later you don’t love the field of medicine or physical therapy or helping others, then take a good look at your life and make the decision that puts BALANCE back in your life where work doesn’t consume you.
In the end, I have my own struggles with wanting to go back to DPT, but having be in the fitness industry for a good 25+ years, I still love helping others and helping them become more athletic, move better, and have a better life, but dedicating a good 3-4yrs of another post graduate degree and being their for my family is what I have to figure out and each of you may or may not have the same issue, but making the proper decision for career and self development will be PERSONAL and different for everyone. When it’s all said and done, MAKE A DECISION and LIVE WITH IT…..HOOAH !!!
Regards,
Tom
Hi Tom,
Primarily wanted to say thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed post and share your thoughts.
I also wanted to add something to your comments about student loans… For those reading this, make sure to inquire whether or not the PT school you are considering, qualifies for federal student loans rather than private student loans. When I was in school, University of St. Augustine did not qualify for federal loans, so we all had to get private loans (this is no longer the case as far as I understand it). In general, private student loans will not only have a higher interest rate but they are quite often variable interest rates rather than fixed. So for the last few years my interest rates have been quite low because interest rates as a whole are low, but once they start to go back up, my rates and monthly payments will rise as well. If you don’t have a firm understanding of finance, this may not sound like a huge deal, but the true difference between fixed government-subsidized loans and variable private student loans (on the same original tuition amount) tens of thousands of dollars different.
Thanks again Tom
Your welcome Jarod. I see a lot a comments about finances and money, so just thought that point would be useful if applicable to some of the folks.
Today, I just found another link below and the point #6 in this link about what this guy has learned now in his Senior yr. of the DPT program, really hit home with trying to balance my life. The fact you are sacrificing family and friends for many years and not having a life while in school, and all the other things with long class days, more homework, etc… is a lot to think about. This guy who wrote this really made me think about what I will be missing in my daugher’s life for the next 3-4yrs, so I hope folks check this link out below, good info for future DPT’s and folks currently in a DPT program, see below:
http://www.prenhall.com/success/MajorExp/physther.html
Once again, thanks for replying back Dr. J (Pardon the BB reference, but had to do it, LOL) and I will definitely let you know what I decide to do over this next year of working on some prereq’s and visiting various DPT’s in clinics, hospitals, etc… the link above made some good points and I figure, visiting and getting some volunteer hours in does two things, it satisfies a prereq for the DPT school and lets me know if going through a DPT program at over 40+yrs old will be right for me)
Ha! I’ll answer to “Dr J” anytime!
Thanks for the link.
Also, in regards to your upcoming observation hours…. make sure you don’t just go to “mill” clinics where each therapist sees multiple patients/hour with little or no one-on-one time. That’ll almost certainly turn you away from PT 🙂 I doesn’t have to be that way, but is unfortunately quite common in our field.
Got it, thanks. What is the “mill” clinic, is that at a hospital or regular PT clinic, please advise. I was planning on going to Sport Rehab Clinics, Hospital PT clinics, Veteran’s Hospital (I am a retired soldier with disabilities in a few of joints, basically DJD from being gung-ho, so working with soldiers and the PT there would be good for me in case I ever work for them), Rehab Centers, etc…
They want you to have a variety of volunteer hours showing I made the rounds sort of speaking, this according to the Program Manager of the DPT programs I would be applying to.
A “Mill” clinic can be any type of clinic where there is a greater focus on seeing high numbers of patients than on giving high quality care. The therapists often see more than one patient at a time and much of the care is actually provided by techs and PTAs.
Dr. Carter,
Is PT school still worth from now until the next 10 years? Or will I be stuck with more student loan debt and have to force changing careers?
Can’t tell the future so I would refer to the statements I gave above… gotta do it cause you love it and then find a way to make it work financially
How hard is being a physical therapist on the body? Is it a job that you can do untill you are old? I have heard that a lot of PTs leave the profession from a physical therapist is this true? If it is do you know what are some possible reasons?
Really depends on the type of PT you practice. I use pretty Aggressive manual therapy techniques, so yes, PT is pretty hard on my body… There are many out there who do not practice in this way and I’m sure to easily practice their form of physical therapy as long as they want to.
I have no idea about the numbers or percentages of physical therapists that end up leaving the field, and the reasons why. However, I would speculate that plenty of them leave because they are tired of being forced to see multiple patients every hour and spending 1 to 2 hours at the end of every day catching up on paperwork for which they’re not paid extra. It doesn’t have to be this way, but it is the unfortunate reality for a large percentage of physical therapists out there.
If you are passionate about this work, love helping people, use good body mechanics, and mix good business skills with your clinical skills, you can have a long, rewarding, and financially positive career in this field.
Best of luck!
I’ve been practicing now for 18+ years, graduated with a bachelor’s and completed my doctorate in 2010. In looking back over my career as a PT, I’ve loved what I’ve done. But in thinking as to whether I would do it again if I had to incur the costs of current student loans, I don’t think I would.
Going into private practice or a cash based would work if you live in the right geographic area. Currently, I work in a rural/blue collar area and the area is poor enough that a cash based model is unlikely to work. Most of our patients are either Medicare, Medicaid, or some combination of the two. Now with the new multiple procedure discount in effect, we are seeing 16+ patient’s a day and are being told that we are still not making ends meet.
Before any of you consider going cash based, do some research into your geographic area and see whether your area will support it. Not all areas can. I love working with the patient body that I do, but I’ve not seen a salary increase in 3 years and am not likely to. Whether you have a PT or a DPT after your name, the CPT code reimburses the same, and this is way many companies look at it.
Absolutely. Much of the care is provided by PTAs, but don’t underestimate the skill of PTAs. I’ve worked with PTAs for many years and found that the care they provide is often better than the care given by PTs. It all depends on the experience of the caregiver regardless of the title after the name. Techs do not provide the care and cannot in our state although I know they do in many clinics, but that is beside the point. I guess I was trying to make the point, albeit not very clearly I guess, that before venturing into a cash pay clinic, look into your geographic area to see whether it would support one.
Thanks for the input Mike. I don’t completely agree with the idea that an area like yours would not support a cash-based practice. It would certainly be more difficult but there are a number of creative ways that it could work, and I imagine it wouldn’t be any harder than seeing 16+ patients/day and still be told that it’s not enough …
I would add for those reading this to check out a few posts on the topic of geographic area, mindset, and cash-based services in blue collar areas:
https://drjarodcarter.com/cash-based-pt-practice-viable-city/ – running the income numbers on your geographical area
https://drjarodcarter.com/surprised-pay-out-of-pocket-services/ – don’t fall into the mindset that only rich people choose to utilize cash-based practices
https://drjarodcarter.com/pps-2012-2-rural-cash-based-physical-therapy/ – cash-based services that can do very well in rural/blue-collar areas
Thanks for the link. My area has a $16,000 average income level per household Ijust found out. This can also explain why several cash based clinics have tried to open here in the past but failed. However, your information is interesting and I do think this can work in an area with the right demographics. I don’t like seeing 16+ patients in a day, but I guess when most of your patient base is on either Medicare, Medicaid, or a combination of both this is what is required to “keep your doors open.”
I just finished a DPT last year after working for 3 years in a different field “military”. I now work for Indian Health Services and make a decent salary (well above $60K) with yearly raise, have a great benefits package (worth ~ $20,000), and receive $20,000 a year for loan repayment. I see a mainly orthopedic caseload of 8-10 patients a day. It’s not all doom and gloom out there. Also, I am not Naive American if you are wondering.
I was just wondering if you have an update on your friend and if he decided to go to PT school? Like your friend, I am not your typical student. I am 35 years old and just finishing my first year at the University of St. Augustine. When I decided to go back to school I couldn’t imagine taking 3 years off to go to school full time. At St. Augustine they have a program that allows me to do classes online and attend hands on labs on the weekends. Although this program runs 4 years, I am able to work part time and make some income. Since I am able to work, I found a job as an office manager for a PT Owned practice specializing in pelvic physical therapy. She runs a cash based business and has become my mentor. So while I am working towards my DPT, I am also learning first hand how to run a cash based private practice, as well as being able to take pelvic therapy classes from her (she is an instructor as well). So although I will be 38 when I finally end my PT school journey, I am positioning myself to go into ownership much quicker than a typical grad in their mid-20’s.
When I was considering PT school, I was very nervous about going back at my age and starting over. I have also worked as a PT Aide in an insurance based business and was told by the new DPT’s that being a PT wasn’t worth it and that I should be a PA. But now that I am one year into it and have found a great mentor, I am positive I made the right decision to pursue being a PT.
Thanks for the input, Alma. To answer your question, he did Not decide to go to PT school
I am a PTA with over a year experience in a short-term rehab facility in Florida. I realize this blog is asking the question if PT school is worth it; however I would like to add that PTA school is worth it and I love my job. I wanted to go to PT school but I was newly married with no college degree, and it would have been too financially straining to be in school 7 years solid. So after 3 years and $25,000 of student loans, I’m making $55,000 annually doing what I love. After I get a couple years of experience, I am thinking of getting incorporated and working as an independent contractor in home health. However, the idea of going back to school to be a PT is nagging at me. Findlay University in OH has the only bridge program in the country for working PTAs to transition to PT. So this brings me back around to the blog question, “Is PT school worth it?” In my situation, I’m not sure.
Nova Southeastern in FL offers a Hybrid program where you do most of your classes online and attend class a few days out of the month. That may be another option for you as well. One of the PTAs I work with is currently attending the program and happy with it so far (I am also a PTA). She’s working full time and the hospital we work for offers partial tuition assistance so while it’s a lot to balance for a few years, she won’t lose much income (maybe a couple days a month) and she’s getting help paying for school. http://www.nova.edu/chcs/pt/
Hello Dr.Jarod,
I would first like to thank you for putting out this blog post. I am currently in the middle of one of the hardest trimesters at the University of St.Augustine in San Marcos. As you may or may not know, our tuition is quite high (alone, it costs 100k total, that is without expenses) I am able to afford this through help with my parents, but half I will be taking out loans. Every day I question myself about whether or not to continue. I don’t believe I have the 100% passion for this position as much as I hoped. While I had some experience as an aide for 2 years (where the PTs worked 10 patients a day, not sure how much salary), I felt perhaps it would be better when I was a PT, and that it would be more exciting for me.
Doing PT, seems like factory work, now knowing about how evals are done, I can never imagine doing that 30 mins for each patient perhaps back to back.
I will say, what drove me to this career was a combination of interest for the human body and opportunity (I got the job as an aide through a friend, and nothing in my life was going on at the time so I jumped at the opportunity. The interest for the human body part, comes just from that, interest. I would not say I dream about anatomy, or that I have a pure drive for it, however I did (and still do) find it interesting. I choose PT because of those two reasons of interest and opportunity, I don’t have many other opportunities, so I took it.
However, IS THAT ENOUGH to not hate my job every single day because I have the burden of debt looming over my head, and the 10+ patients a day with no breaks except lunch?
I know that everyone that peruses PT school ARE NOT 100% passionate, yet they still pay the 100k tuition for the 65K salary, is this overvalued?
I also really enjoyed your talk on youtube at the other University of St. Augustine campus I hope one day you can be invited over to our campus here to do a talk as well!
Thank you!
Hey Nelson,
I’m just up the road so I’m sure I’ll be speaking at USA Austin soon.
To respond to your question, all I can say is that it is in everyone’s ability (and responsibility) to create your own reality. If you don’t want to work in a mill clinic, don’t! (BTW – seeing only 10 patients a day in an insurance-based practice is really not bad at all … most see much more than that) If you want to create your own practice where you can be happy with the schedule and the type of patients you treat, DO IT! Work hard in school, soak up as much business info as you can along the way, find a good mentor in your first job or two, and create your own ideal practice.
Like I said, I’m just up Mopac from you guys, so if you’d like to come shadow me in the clinic and see how I’ve done the above, Dr Werner has my phone/email.
Hang in there!
Jarod
So USA, actually has a new location in San Marcos, California. Which is 30 mins from San Diego. That is the college I am currently at, unfortunately it will be too far for a trip for you and me. However, I really appreciated the offer to come shadow.
If you don’t mind me asking, how much was USA asking for tuition at the time (what year?) when you were in school?
Oh, that’s funny … I always thought of that campus as the “San Diego” campus… the one here in Austin is pretty far south and kinda close to a neighboring city called “San Marcos” – interesting coincidence.
I know the tuition costs have gone up a ton since I was there from 2002-2005 … I think mine were around $6K/semester
I stumbled on this site and have enjoyed reading through everyone’s thoughts on the profession. I would be considered one who has seen it bad in two healthcare professions. Having an undergraduate degree in athletic training, which I still maintain an active license, I saw how poorly the pay was (Here in Florida it is barely $30,000 a year for the few high schools who are willing to pay for it) and how long the hours were. I would work daily in an outpatient PT clinic as a PT ‘extender’ and evenings covering games or practices. Not wanting to work 12 hour days for the rest of my life, I had the brilliant idea of going back for my Master’s in Physical Therapy (If it was a doctorate at that time I would have gone the Physician Assistant route). A few years later and about $50,000 in loans I was ready to conquer the world! After all, I was an athletic trainer AND a physical therapist who knew my way around any outpatient clinic.
Fast forward just two short years out of school and I was burnt out. I had moved up to New York where I never saw less than 20 patients a shift. I moved back to Florida hoping for something better but unfortunately saw slightly better patient load but the pay was stagnant. So I ventured into home health, worker’s comp, and education before I found my way to a physician-owned outpatient clinic. I was sure I found my permanent home. But…after nearly two years it was clear there was no upward mobility not just in title but in pay. I was left with the option of working harder for less or branching out on my own. Earlier this year I opened my own cash-based practice (although I dabble in just two insurances-VA and tricare to be exact). I would be lying to say it’s easy but there is something rewarding about using all that education for building a future for yourself. I have learned a lot in my short time as a business owner but have learned many hard lessons as a physical therapist working for others.
Just remember, if you work for someone else there is a pretty good chance you are only as good as your last day of work. There will also come a time when someone is going to try to replace you with a younger, cheaper version. With many DPT’s flooding the market, many of us who do not have the title of “Doctor” are going to be hard pressed when trying to get paid what we are worth. I am happy to talk to those starting out in the profession or looking to become a PT to give them an honest assessment of what to expect and what pitfalls to look out for as I wish someone had given me some tips years ago!
Keith,
Thank you very much for the thoughtful and informative comment. And congratulations on your new cash-based practice! Yes, it’s certainly not easy, but is more rewarding than working for others if you can get past the initial tough start up times.
Thank you again for sharing your experience and best of luck.
Jarod
I have read some of the comments that have been made and wanted to leave a comment of my own. I am entering in the physical therapy program this following September in NY. Clearly a lot of people on this site have more experience then I do considering that most of them are physical therapists. I noticed that a lot of people mentioned that the physically therapy program is not worth it due to the high loan amount. But in this decade tell me what health care profession does not require you to take out such high loans? I believe that you can find a con in almost everything, and the same goes to for a pro. Some people also mentioned your better of going to medical school but I think that’s easier said then done and medical school is not the same as physical therapy. But if anyone has any suggestions on how to have a career that pays good and does not require you to take out a loan as high I am all ears. Some also mentioned that this job requires you stand all day, but what job doesn’t. If you are a physical therapist you should know yourself how important staying active is especially when you are getting older. For the entrepreneurs, of course it wont be easy to run your own practice and keep up to date with medical insurances and paper work, but tell me what isn’t hard and pays good. It is all about being organized , communication and having the right employees with the right tasks. With every problem there is a solution. Some times you think you are doing something you love but end up hating it. I might sound ignorant because of that fact that I haven’t even started the Dpt program yet but I believe that it has 2 benefits. It can be rewarding and interesting or if you want to make some real money you can open up your own practice and you don’t need to have 10 years of experience to do it.
Thanks for contributing to the conversation, Ivan. Best of luck in PT school! You’re gonna do great!
Hi Dr. Carter,
I am interested in becoming a travel PT immediately after graduation, as I have no family obligations, and the salary and lifestyle is very appealing to me. Would you recommend going into travel PT as a new grad? Or work for a year (or maybe even do residency)?
Thanks!
This is my experience. I graduated in 97 and my first job paid 42k. By 2000 I was making 58k and in 2007 94k. This was hospital and outpatient settings. By 2010 I made 160K doing home health which included a 50 cent a mile reimbursement of which I cleared 20 cents into my pocket because I had a high mileage car. The year before I made 144k. There is money to be made in PT without the hassles of clinic ownership. Home health is it for me if you want to make a killing and drive average 80 miles per day. Just the mileage reimbursement buys you a new car every 2 years. I love it. I am on my own and there is only one ‘meeting’ a week. I don’t have to put up with any of the clinic BS. Often I am done by 1PM and go home. I make my own appointments, start when I want finish when I finish. That’s my day.
When I graduated I had a 100k loan debt. I paid it off in less than 3 years with my weekend and evening part time jobs.
That’s how you do it.
Cheers!
AWESOME Story! Thank you for sharing it with us. Nice to hear about a PT making well over 100K without owning/managing multiple clinics and working 12-hour days. Well Done! Home health certainly isn’t for everyone, but if it fits, it’s great to know that kinda money is still there to be had in that setting.
Ivan,
What hospital or company did you work for? It seems like you got really lucky. I don’t know if you can break that much for this day and age.
No, no, no. No way. Would never recommend it to anyone- even if they are “passionate about PT”- UNLESS they can find a way to do it without the debt.
I worked as a PT (DPT) for 7 years, and after racking up over $170k in debt between undergrad and DPT program, I have not paid off one cent of principal. Only making my minimum interest payments- that’s all I can afford while still paying basic living expenses (my rent is $600/mo). After 7 years as a PT my salary was capped off at $72k pre-tax- and that was with zero benefits, no PTO, etc. So much for the dream of ever owning a home or working for anything but paying for my ability to work- good thing I don’t have ambitions for a family, affording children is out of the question. I’ve had two relationships end because of the limitations caused by my debt. It is oppressive.
I loved the actual work with patients I did as a PT, but with my financial stresses and life constraints because of the debt- which weren’t going anywhere- along with the growing limitations from insurance companies regulating the way I practice, and the growing hours of unpaid paperwork, I finally opened my eyes to reality, and decided I had had enough. Now I’m literally homeless and looking for any job possible, while also trying to be creative in finding ways to “use my degree” in a way that will at least allow me to cover basic living expenses and maybe save up a little emergency fund. I’ve made peace with giving up the silly idea that my debt will ever be paid off… yeah, that’s funny.
Thank you Elizabeth for being honest. You hit it right on the head, the time/monetary investment is not worth the salary. I have more PT’s contacting me for work than I know what to do with, some with well over 20 yrs experience. There is no stability in this profession unless you are happy with very modest pay and a workload that will only get worse and worse over time. As much as I love what I do, it is CONSTANT grind. I think more people need to be honest to prospective PT students so they know what they are getting themselves into. Now I have never lived in the midwest or a small town and from what I hear physical therapy is still a noble profession out there, but I can say in 3 states my experience working has been a rat race. I am happy to finally be able to do my own thing but its not for everyone, especially if you stress out over $$$ since it may not always be consistent. Like Jarod said, you better love it, or you will regret it.
May I have access to the ebook on cash payments and Medicare please? I am a student. Thank you.
You can get the first 22 pages for Free at https://drjarodcarter.com/newsletter
Homehealth rate : OASIS: 160-170; EVal: 125-135; Follow up visit: 110-120
Hope this helps.
Here is the realistic answer that for some reason PTs don’t get.
Don’t go to PT school. It isn’t strategically smart–at all.
You can thank the APTA for this. They pushed the “Doctorate” without any forethought to the consequences. They thought the world would hand them direct access on this farce. And the DPT is just that—a farce. You don’t do a legitimate thesis that is defended like a grad student. And no don’t bring up your research paper that we all did in the BS and MS programs. You don’t go through orals. You don’t teach lower level classes or go to “advanced PT” school. Basically you are not only not equivalent to an MD on any level but you’re not comparable to a sociology post grad student that DOES do the above. Of course DPTs have an attitude. I would too if I were 100-150K in debt for a salary of 60-80K.
Luckily I got in when it was a BS. My loans were paid off long ago and in a few years I retire. At 55. So keep thumbing your nose at the BS and MS for the same skill set. Keep telling yourself that the extra internships they make you do to justify the extra year make that DPT legitimate. Meanwhile I’ll talk as many 19 year olds as possible out of PT school. Because that would be the smart thing to do. And I’m sorry most of you didn’t realize your error until it was too late.
Appreciate the candor, Chip. And HUGE congrats on retiring at 55!!!!
I’m glad I ran across the website. I became. PTA three years ago after I got my undergrad and have been going to night school for a year to finish PA prereqs. I actually just applied to a PTA to OT bridge program that starts in January.
Anyways I’m two years away from applying to PA school which is my real dream since these past three years have shown me what a joke PT is.
Outpatient pays nothing and works you like a dog, nursing homes pick up patients with no hope of getting better, over and over and over again and try to force you to see them for 75 minutes a day six days a week. I’m talking stage 4 cancer patients that literally have died the day after I had to argue with my director how they were not appropriate. What a joke. HH has referrals which the patient never called for therapy, the MD just ordered it without their knowledge, the PT shows up and just talks with them for five minutes, writes an eval and then good luck! It’s up to you to call them and track them down. I actually had the company ask me one time when a patient wouldn’t answer the phone or the door, if I checked to see if it was unlocked. Wtf? Just walk into some strangers house? Again, what a joke.
And let’s talk about America now. I have only seen two actual American PT’s in three years. Probably because they need a doctorate degree and expect more pay since they owe 100,000 in debt. So guess what? H1-B visa time! Literally over 80% of PT’s I see around only have bachelor’s degrees and are from India or the Phillipinnes. So they come here, with no debt, and are ALLOWED to get paid the same and do the same stuff that an American needs a doctorate and six figures of debt to do?
Screw this profession, sad to say, I hope Trump gets Medicare because over half of therapy is fraudulent. And…. a joke.
First year DPT student here. I think I found this thread by googling something to the effect of “I want to drop out of PT school.”
I spent an hour reading through every comment on this thread and I agree with the majority that it is just not worth it.
My school is a state school that is on the lower end financially but will still end up with 120k if I complete the program. This whole thing is a sham and I literally feel nauseous sitting in my intro to pt classes which wholeheartedly indoctrinate the APTA organization, their “visions”, and how not maintaining good continuous membership is nearly equivalent to a mortal sin.
They are so out of touch it isn’t funny. I’m thinking of leaving my program after this semester. The first semester has been the most stressful period of my life so far, and I am in my late 20’s. My mental health is at a substantial low, I have been suicidal at times, and have had an average of 3 anxiety attacks per week since starting the program this past August. With the previous inputs about salary to debt ratio and productivity related job stress I don’t think I will ever make enough to obtain the (meager) life I want and justify the years taken from my life and the loss of my sanity.
The APTA really f’d up making this a 3 year degree, and I would honestly rather donate $500 to the lunatic presidential candidate Donald Trump than to buy one of the apta’s t-shirts, let alone pay membership fees ever again.
I have big decisions to make as far as the next steps of my life and direction, but anyone out there considering a DPT degree, please do more research- calculate how much it will cost and then go on Reddit personal finance and use their calculators (in their stickies) or forum to see what your life will really be like with this income/debt ratio, and go from there.
Thanks for the candid input Amelia. I’m so sorry to hear your experience has been so bad, and I wish you all the best with your upcoming decisions.
I’ll add a little more info here for you and others reading this … A few days from the time I’m writing this will mark my 10-year anniversary of graduating PT school. I came out with about $100K in student loan debt and I’m now only down to a little under $60K in debt. I have classmates that paid the same amount of debt off very aggressively and were done in 5 years, and I’m sure I have classmates with even more debt than me.
The main reason I haven’t paid my loans off at a faster rate is that interest rates have been so low and I have instead saved money to put toward real estate investments that I feel will give a far higher return than what I’m paying in student loan interest … that bet could backfire but so far it is proving to be true.
I make damn good money but I still have significant debt. I’m happy to do my job every day and I’m now growing my practice. I’ve created a (currently) rare scenario of being able to treat patients the way I want to, avoid the hassles of insurance reimbursement, and have my own private practice …
If you feel you can pull off a similar scenario, and will love treating patients and helping people by creating a PT business, then my vote is to go for it. But if you plan to simply be a staff PT until you’re 65 and retire, you really need to “run the numbers” as Amelia and others here have suggested.
Hi Amelia!
I realize that this thread is a year old but I am finding myself in your EXACT position, just a year later. It started with the anxiety from the first semester of my DPT program itself, then became VERY hard to ignore all the fears I had about the field. If you (or anybody else in a similar situation) has any insight into what they ended up doing, I would love to hear. It’s an extremely difficult decision to give up on a “dream” that I worked so hard for, and I am sure someone else has felt this way before as it takes SO much work just to even get into school these days.
Thanks!
S
Sadie and Amelia – I’ve been a PT for almost 21 years now. You have good reasons to be concerned. The profession is not the same as it was when I first started, and although change can be good, it’s not always good. I would not come out of PT school with $100K in debt – no way. PT school is about making money for the university. The PT profession doesn’t really understand where it fits into the scheme of healthcare anymore and is constantly trying to find its niche. The profession is now full of therapists who don’t like to touch people, sweat, get dirty, get tired, or be inconvenienced by patient needs. When you begin a career fresh out of school and are thrown into the healthcare profession, you get a rude awakening. Patient care is secondary to making a buck for the facility, and most healthcare professionals realize that quickly out of school. If your heart is in to helping people, become a missionary. Healthcare will steal your soul and leave you an empty shell of a person who went into it with the best of intentions but who now is responsible for a mountain of debt. Once you get out with that debt, you will have no choice but to work in the field just to pay it off. Think hard. Oh, and by the way, the APTA is an organization whose primary goal is justify its existence by making you think you need them. You don’t. Good luck.
Mike,
I appreciate your candid input and taking the time to respond. I did find myself often feeling as if faculty was encouraging all the wide-eyed students to “drink the APTA koolaid.” I often wondered if I was the only one in the room who was truly concerned with the issues in healthcare and how they would affect all of us when our academic bubble was popped. I agree with you that there are other ways to help others without sacrificing both your sanity and financial stability. I have all the respect in the world for PTs because they are some of the most intelligent and selfless people out there…unfortunately I am starting to see that it is a profession where you are under-compensated and underappreciated. I agree with the “think hard” advice to anybody else out there seeking advice about moving forward with their education in the therapy field.
After reading the overall negative or “realism” according to some of being a PT after grad school, I feel strongly to shine some light. First, I do appreciate the honesty of all therapists, students, prospective students…however, let’s look at the positives. A report came out (I wished I would’ve saved it after coming across this blog) in early 2016, Physical Therapists was in the top 21 careers for job security for MANY years to come. The list did include other healthcare professions as well as different engineering careers and lawyers. I grew up in a home where my father made very good money in the computer world, retired at 50, but literally hated every second of his job! He always told me to do something I was passionate about that made a decent living, but to never choose a career based on money as he did.
I valued his wisdom and pursed PT my freshman year of undergrad after I nearly lost my dominant hand in an car accident. I had intense hand therapy for a year, 8 surgeries, lost a golf scholarship to a prestigous university, missed 3 months of my senior year in HS, etc…through the hard work/care, encouragement and friendship of my hand therapist I found this was an incredible career.
I don’t look at my debt as a burden, a heavy caseload or a hard day/wk/month as the end of the world. As a PT, we all should be grateful to serve people that we are gifted to help. We should work hard, take the jobs out of grad school that may not be our dream job, work PRN, etc and see all that as a blessing. We all have it pretty darn good, I’m reminded of that nearly every day talking with patients and hearing some real tough life situations their going through. Like a fire-fighter at the age of 27 who’s had 3 back surgeries, one failed, resulting in a fusion with a newborn at home who is no longer able to do HIS job-serving people/being active/making a difference, just like we do as therapists!
As for the fatigue and PT being hard on the body that can be prevented to a large point through what we know! We all need and should be examples, we are the masters of anatomy-have amazing posture, eat healthy, workout, BE a walking/talking example of what we preach and instruct! What an impact that has on any patient population, and a great topic of discussion.
I will never discourage someone to apply for grad school, I’ll give them these exact words and ultimately it’s their decision. I couldn’t agree with you more Jarod, if you love your job the money will come, and so far that’s worked well for me. This profession is truly a gift, believe that, live it out, and all will work out!
Hello,
I am now in the position your friend was in a few years ago. For 20 years ive woekd in the financial field and am consodering starting all pver again by pursuing a DPT degree. Did your friend end up pursuing a PT career? If yes, how is he doing?
He decided against pursuing a PT career. His passion for it was not where he knew it should be in order to justify the amount of debt it would require at this point in his life.
Is PT school worth it?? Humm. Well its a personal choice regardless of all the information you will compile. After 14 years working as a PTA, and at times training grad student PTs. I questioned one day, “What is this PT student learning that I could not learn?”. So I decided to go to PT school at one of best colleges then the states, “UMass Lowell”. My mentor was Dr. Susan O’Sullivan, and I was her only advisee, and one day she told me after my recovery from my second breast cancer, she “admired” me. (Even while I was recovering I still took an on-line class.) I was shock, this amazing woman thought in some way I was special. The most rewarding aspect of being a ‘non traditional’ college student, who was married with 4 children taking full load of classes every semester, and working per diem as a PTA was, one of the best 7 years of my life. I have so much appreciation of my collegiate experience because I had life experience to compliment it. I made friends with my class mates, that were the ages of my grown children. To help off set my college costs, my first year of grad school, I worked as a TA. Second year of grad school I was President of the UMass Lowell Physical Therapy Club. I did ‘real’ research that is published, I co-authored a pediatric caregiver manual that is used in 3rd world countries, I traveled to India and did volunteer work in 2 villages in Busnipur, I met international doctors that did various research. So in a nutshell. Going back to school for your DPT degree is more than money, it can be as rewarding as you make it. I love helping people and I am creative, I get to be myself and I get paid for it. To me, being a DPT is timeless, there are so many avenues you can take, and you can move from one setting to another, so if a PT tells me they are bored, then they are simply boring. The new adventures this career path can take you is limitless, don’t just focus on the money, because the reality is you can’t take it with you, BUT, with PT skills you will probably always have a job. With a PT degree you can teach, open your own business, create products, write books, work in research…etc.. I hope my perspective helps. I have to thank my husband and children who supported me with my decision to go back to school. I’ll be honest, I also sacrificed a lot in those 7 years. I had to miss some events of my children while they where elementary thru high school, weddings, funerals and holidays. No matter what you decide, good luck and take care.
Hi. I’m currently an undergraduate exercise science student and I’m looking to go into the pt or pta profession. I’m having alot of trouble deciding which path to take. I know I would be over 100k in student debt if I went for pt and only about 45k to 55k for pta. Would it be better in this day of age to go for the pta rather than the pt? I think I would do well going either way, but I don’t want to spend the money for a doctorate and not make enough money to pay it all off. I also want to go into aquatic therapy. Anything is greatly appreciated!
3 years in……
So I have recently celebrated 3 years in business as a cash-based physical therapist. I have learned quite a bit along the way and I would be happy to share both my hits and misses with any PT. For starters, I can’t see how anyone is thinking the outpatient world is going to get any better. I have seen more Physician-owned practices pop up, and I’m not even talking about those owned by an ortho. I’ve seen general medicine guys set up shop as they see it as an extra revenue stream. Having been on the losing end of this deal, I don’t ever see this panning out in favor of the PT. The reimbursement rates are so across the board it can make your head spin. With some as low as $35 up to $80, it reminds me of some tourist trap in the Bahamas where the price is never the same. I can go on and on about salaries and why some Therapists think they are worth more than they really are even with multiple certifications but that is for another time. I would tell anyone looking into the profession to question why you should have to spend thousands of dollars on a regular basis to become “certified” in something when you are about to spend close to 6-figures getting an advanced degree. A buddy of mine who is an accountant (armed with nothing but a bachelor’s degree) asked me why I am constantly taking these continuing education classes years after graduation. He was shocked when I told him how much some of them costed and if it was worth it. I then began to ask myself what other profession has so many different takes on how to do the actual job. I will minimize the rant here and go straight to the pros/cons in my time as a cash-based provider
PROS-
Scheduling-NEVER having to see more than one patient at a time. Also helpful is the luxury of scheduling patients when I have the time. If I need an hour or two here or there I don’t have to ask permission.
Ideal Patients-We have all had to deal with them. Those patients you really can’t stand. Just because your clinic takes on everyone who walks through the door, it somehow is your responsibility to make them happy. This isn’t the easiest task as I have seen first-hand especially here in the south how some people can be. I genuinely enjoy treating every one of my patients.
Time off-As long as I give my patients adequate notice, I can take time off when I want. Currently Im in Maine for the next week and a half which I know is no small feat to get that much time off in a regular clinic or hospital setting.
Get paid on demand-No waiting for payments as I get paid through cash, check, or charge upon rendering services.
Make your own quota-figure out what you want to make and set your own goals. It took some time for me to the get the huge salary out of my head. I used to measure my worth in what I was making and being a cash-based provider can be humbling at first. I am fortunate to say I have seen over a 15-20% growth rate each year
Treat how you want-I give each patient one hour. This allows for a percentage of time spent on manual work and the rest on therapeutic exercise. I never cut corners and that is why my patients continue to use me and are the best source of referrals
CONS-
Networking-I truly do not like this part of the job. I have no problem chatting with patients and other PTs but to get to know someone for the sake of referrals was never my thing. Fortunately I am in good with the right people where I live and as long as I take care of them they always take care of me.
Figuring out where to spend your money-I’m not an SEO expert nor am I the best marketer but there are TONS of people out there who will be happy to take your money for little to no return. I have learned the hard way that pricey print advertising isn’t the best avenue for gaining clients.
Competition-Sure competition is good but when you are a cash-based provider you are in the minority. The rest of the PT world (Not all because I don’t want to offend the good ones out there) is on auto-pilot. They are just a part of the machine and as I learned it is best to keep your head down and grind. To speak up against the way things are at your place of employment is NOT going to get you anywhere. It does get tiring when you are competing against what seems like the world but I can say thankfully because you care more about what you when it is on your own terms, there are patients out there that will pay for better than average.
This is a short list that may be edited but remember to enjoy what you do because you will be doing it for most of your life. If you don’t like it bite the bullet and do something else. Of the 30 that I graduated with over 12 years ago, close to 33% no longer work in clinical care or do something completely different.
Wow, Keith, thank you so much for the detailed input. I’m sure many reading this will appreciate it as well. And congrats on your success in the cash-based business model!
Hi Dr. Cartor,
I’m getting ready to start a private DPT program in Colorado. I foolishly let my urge to explore new places decide where I applied and ultimately put a deposit down, with almost no regard for finances. I just received a bachelor’s in business (ironic, I know) and have about $30k in debt. The DPT program has a total cost of $160k including living expenses. The idea of being close to $200k in debt at age 25 is frightening to say the least. I’m currently exploring other options in the health professions like an accelerated nursing program, and am considering simply trying to find a run of the mill position in corporate America to put my B.A. to use, even though I know I probably wouldn’t like that. But starting a program that sounds like will leave me with suffocating loans for the next 30 years seems even dumber than applying out of state like I did in the first place. I’m still undecided. I’ve invested a lot of time and money into preparing for PT school and don’t hold a degree in what interests me. I would rather be a PT than an office worker, but I don’t know if a cost-benefit analysis favors one career over the other.
I know now that the financial aspects of attending grad school should have been weighed long ago, but I guess I was a naive undergrad student who believed too much about what I read on the U.S. News and World Report’s website about how PT was a great field to get into for monetary and job satisfaction reasons alike. I suppose I’m just wondering where the idea that PT is a well-paying career is coming from, and why there are so many students like me who, at least for now, are committed to decades of debt while feeling somewhat blind sided about the whole thing. I knew PT school would be expensive, but I was under the impression that one way or another, the finances would work themselves out since $60,000 is apparently good money starting out. I obviously should have looked into this myself a long time ago, but why do they tell us DPTs make a decent living when from the looks of it on this blog full of current PTs, they really don’t?
Do you really have to think about it? 200K?? That will be about 325K by the time you pay it back with interest. Nothing you can do about your undergrad and wrong major for you–can’t do anything about that now—but you can keep from getting 200K in debt in a field that is becoming more and more of a disaster. Jarod is doing well–in Austin I believe. And it seems he is doing it right one on one–like we are supposed to be doing. Most cash clinics will be hard pressed to succeed in most areas of the country as people are going to go where insurances pay. And take a look at some of the comments above–mine are from experience all over the country. Quite simply it would be insane to get this much in debt for this field and the typical pay package. No matter how much “you really want to be a PT.”
Again, with the blanket, over-arching statements 🙁 I know of cash-practices doing just fine in tons of cities and rural areas around the country. You work as a travel PT in insurance-based scenarios so almost all of your patients are of the “I’d only go where I can use my insurance” mentality; so I don’t doubt why you have the impression that basically all “people are going to go where insurances pay” … the majority of people? Yes, correct. But that doesn’t mean the minority that have the mindset of paying more OOP to get a higher value service isn’t enough to support a number of cash-based practices. AND as deductibles and copays skyrocket, my patients are often finding they are saving money by coming to my clinic at least until they’ve hit their deductible. It’s becoming easier now than it was 5 years ago to have success in this model, and I’m seeing (and helping) our colleagues do it all over the country
Maybe in the future–possibly. Who knows, I could be wrong there on how the model develops. Doesn’t really matter to me as I make money as a contractor.
“Over arching statements.” You take issue that I attack a profession that deserves to be attacked. Travel PT now, right.
Been in skilled nursing as permanent
Been in skilled nursing as travel
Same in hospitals
Years of HH
Been permanent hire in OP
Have run OP clinics solo as contractor
Have been travel in OP–across the country
Have been sought out to start up OP clinics.
And have been sought out to aid in start up of cash based clinics twice
17 years now Jarod. Across the country with many contacts in all realms.
To get in debt with the “doctorate” of that magnitude of 100-200K on the hope of succeeding in cash based is foolish. It might work–your model does. Others too I imagine. But to go into the profession with that debt? It is strategically stupid. I know owners cash based clinics as well. The majority of those I know have not done as well as the traditional model–BUT they have a lot less headache for sure. One I know grosses about 50K a year in Great Falls. Not saying you can’t make it work—but you are sure chancing a huge debt plus your note on the new business.
The other statements aren’t overarching and apparently a few in the comments see it as well. My experience is far more than yours in more genres than yours and in many more places than yours. And again, your own state has a terrible lack of ethics in our profession. How do you not know that? Because you have limited experience in one genre. But again glad you’re doing it right and making money. But the rest of your profession isn’t doing it right it all. If it is going to change it will first have to be acknowledged. It hasn’t been acknowledged and that’s why we are where we’re at today as a largely charlatan profession. I’m not and you’re not—but most are Jarod.
I guess I can’t keep repeating myself. please see previous comments.
So sorry you ended up in a profession your grew to hate so badly. I hope you can find something else to do for work you can be passionate and excited about on a daily basis. Seriously, I really do.
Hello everyone.
I’m a first year DPT student, having just finished my first semester. During said semester, I was so stressed and in the first time in my life, I think depressed due to the financial situation this career would place me in. The stress of it all destroyed my relationship with my dear loved one.
I read this entire comment section and found it gloomy, but true. I also found it relieving because I think I realized I’m done. I don’t have to deal with this bullshyte anymore. PT, while a noble and worthy dream, isn’t sustainable. It just isn’t. In 2018, it’s a fools errand. You get an education and career to support yourself and potentially a family. Not go into crushing, crippling debt. No job, no matter how much you convince yourself you “like” it will never be so if you’re eating canned beans three times a day in a leaky shack somewhere because you have 130K student debt to take care of. I’m pissed off that I didn’t see it sooner. I feel like I’ve been scammed. To be honest, maybe most of us have. But, I am glad I saw it now. 1.5 years and 33K student debt is all I’ve accrued. Dumb thing is that 20K of that 33K was just from *ONE* DPT semester. 2.5 months of education. Already more than my entire undergrad. Let that sink in, folks. Fortunately, I have a family that will welcome me home while I figure out what to do with my life next. Kinda embarrassing, but it’s a common trend for millennials. University as a whole is a mine-field. I DO NOT ADVISE ANY TEEN OR PRE-PT PERSON TO PURSUE THIS CAREER.
It’s shattering to see everything I thought my life would be crumble over the course of weeks as my eyes opened to reality. Very sad. But, thankfully I have other passions I can look into such as international studies and relations- go study in Germany. Anthropology maybe. Whatever. Maybe these careers don’t pay 60-70K like PT does, but then again they also don’t get you into 130K debt either. In other words, they’re not life-sucking scams.
Very interesting comments here. I have to say if your heart is in this profession, you can certainly make a difference in your patients lives. I love waking up in the morning and going to see my patients. I’m a Travelling Home health PTA and I’m currently in Northern California. I believe every session I have with a pt is valuable, because not only do I assess and improve physical function, but I also perform a wellness check of vitals and after talking with patients I find out a lot of information that their doctors don’t know. I get to spend more time with these pts then the doctor does. All the home health agencies I have been with communicate well with nurses, PTs, OTs and doctors really well. We can make a difference, and that’s what matters. But your heart has to be in it. Because your energy and positivity is what our sick patients need. I could go on and on about how corrupt and negligent SNFs and actually any setting can be. But we can still make a difference in these settings. Not by going with the flow of the corrupt corporations, but focusing on how you can help each individual person on your caseload for that day. How can I help. Sometimes though you have to get out of bad situations. I did at a SNF in Florida that was finally getting to me. So I hit the road with my family and now I’m in California loving what I do and appreciating this opportunity to go into someone’s house that’s hurting and trying to help.
On the financial aspect I’d say PTA was a great option for me and my family. I made 60,000 working in Florida. Now 80,000 last year traveling in California.
Peace
Thanks for taking the time to share your experience
As a current PTA who is contemplating the idea of returning to school for the DPT in the near future, this thread has been very helpful to me so I thought I would add to it. At the moment, I work 4 days a week in an outpatient orthopedic clinic making about 56k a year. If I wanted to pick up a couple per diem shifts a month at a nursing home, I could easily bump that to 65k. After reading some of these responses, I have realized that I have it pretty good right now. I graduated from pta school with only about 8k of debt and was able to pay out of pocket to finish my bachelors. For those of you wondering about going the PTA route as opposed to the PT, I can say I have no regrets in doing so. I do occasionally wish I didnt always feel like I have to prove myself to PT colleagues who assume my lack of formal education by comparison made me incompetent, but I struggle with justifying the mounds of debt I would have to take on to get the DPT (probably about 125k not including interest). Although I experience many of the issues plaguing the rest of the community as a PTA (increasing productivity requirements, reduced reimbursement, cookie cutter treatments), the ROI was still worth it. After a lot of consideration, I have decided to not pursue my DPT. I was thinking about leaning more towards PA school as a better option to advance from my current role in healthcare.
I am a senior in high school and considering a career in physical therapy. If my estimated total debt is $170,000 for a 3+3 program that leads to a DPT, is it worth it? I currently live in Pennsylvania, so assuming that doesn’t change, how much could I expect to make?
Thanks!
Evan – if I had to do it all over again, I mean starting out like you’re talking about, I wouldn’t do it. Way too much debt. Even if, under the best circumstances working for yourself, you will spend your entire career just paying off your debt. How much a PT can earn is controlled by the CPT codes (although I’ve met very few PTs who understand what limitations come with the CPT codes), the insurance provider, and MDs. Your earning potential will be limited by factors beyond your control. If anyone tells you that you can get rich or wealthy by working as a PT, run. Because if they are, then he/she is doing something unethical or dishonest. I’ve met some of those PTs and they usually end up in jail or trouble with the law or with Medicare. The autonomy of PT is disappearing. Simply making money is not autonomy. Companies and doctors need your license to make money. They don’t need you. Good luck.
Just jumping in to give my opinion and experience: How much I earn has NOTHING to do with CPT codes, which is one of the primary points of creating a cash-based practice (and the focus of this website). And PT practice owners can most definitely get wealthy without being unethical or dishonest. That’s a pretty harsh blanket statement applied to a lot of people who don’t deserve that and are doing quite well in a very honest way. And a staff PT who is diligent about saving and investing can also become wealthy, though it is most definitely true that the mounting debt load makes that harder and harder to do these days.
For the record, I went to TWU Dallas. It’s one of the top PT schools in the state of TX and the value is unreal. I paid 20K over THREE YEARS. The actual tuition is about 35K but they are generous with scholarships. They also offer in-state tuition to “out of state-ers”. Very rigorous program but I think the value makes it highly competitive to get in. Good luck.